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Java identification. #32275 26/06/03 08:36 AM
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c0ldfusi0n Offline OP
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For those of you who know CR servers (i don't know if this feature was implemented on other IRCds), you will know of channel mode +j.
Code:
- CHANNEL MODE j
- Usage: MODE <room> +|-j
- j - Java Clients Only
- This command allows you to have only java clients and sellected legacy IRC clients enter the specified channel. $&
For this mode to take effect you must set a key. $&
For IRC clients to enter the channel they must supply the key, or be invited into the channel.
- Privilege: Channel Operator


What i'm wondering, is how does the IRCd makes the difference between Java clients and others? Is it a 'hidden code' in CR's java applet, or what?


- cF
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Re: Java identification. #32276 26/06/03 09:00 AM
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KingTomato Offline
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could be something as simple as if the realname matches the nickname, or a ctcp version reply. Could also be a specific method that java applets use versus mirc.


-KingTomato
Re: Java identification. #32277 26/06/03 11:02 AM
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c0ldfusi0n Offline OP
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It's nothing related to the nickname or ident. jIRC allows you to customize your ident/nickname as you wish, and yet users are still somehow recognized as being Javas regardless of the information they supply. As for the CTCP, try opening a socket to any servers on any network. I have never seen any servers that issue a CTCP version to every connecting clients. And as far as i know, Java uses pretty much the same methods as any other IRC clients.


- cF
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Re: Java identification. #32278 26/06/03 11:08 AM
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KingTomato Offline
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on 1:JOIN:#: {
/msg $nick Are you running a Java client? >:D
}


-KingTomato
Re: Java identification. #32279 26/06/03 05:38 PM
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Watchdog Offline
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All of the above answers are wrong.

ConferenceRoom has it's own dedicated java applet run by it's own dedicated webserver. The IRCd can easily tell if a user is a real +j client or not and indeed tell if it is the CR applet or a third party one. There are also many ways for opers to distinguish between the two.

Now for the tricky bit: It is possible (and I am not going to broadcast how) to set mIRC up to trick CR into thinking that you are running it's java applet simply because IRC is a plain text based protocol and therefore anything is possible if you know how. If you restrict your room to java-only, there will be bound to be some immature git who thinks it is l337 to try and breach it. Regardless of what they try though, an oper will usually be able to tell and opers that has experimented with it, such as me, will be able to tell, regardless. They think that alteration of version reply and the two-three raw commands is enough to 'hide' what they are doing - wrong.

Anyway, in short, CR is able to tell simply because it is a total package. Most networks consisting of IRCd + BOPM + Services + jPilot still don't have the rich feature list of CR and don't have the integration of CR, and probably never will have.

By the way, +j can't be used on it's own. It is a supplimental mode for +k <key here>. You need to set the key first then set +j. You and your hosts can simply use /cs invite to get in rather than having to remember a lengthy key.

Re: Java identification. #32280 27/06/03 12:13 AM
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c0ldfusi0n Offline OP
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Yeah, i know about +jk, but that doesn't answer the question.


- cF
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Re: Java identification. #32281 27/06/03 11:00 PM
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The first thing I said should answer the question though - it is all because of the integration between CR's IRCd and the included web functionality, which happens to include its java applet.

Re: Java identification. #32282 29/06/03 10:35 PM
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Raccoon Offline
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Well, I'm sure it's possible to completely fool even you with just mIRC. Yes, there are many identifying differences between clients that opers use to identify client vs bot vs drone, etc .. but nothing is impossible to emulate or "cloak".

What I don't get though, is why is it so important for the clients to be using Java? Is the Java client disabled in such a way that prevents the user from seeing information they should not see? If this is the case, and since the IRCd and Client were both designed by the same people... why dont they just disable/hide whatever it is they want to disable/hide on the server end of it?

I can't imagine how possessing an mIRC client could be any more disruptive or give the user any unfair power, unless the client sends colors or uses a script to flood the channel... both with other servers can block with existing channel modes. (strip colors, flood limit)

- Raccoon


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Re: Java identification. #32283 30/06/03 09:24 AM
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It's upto the founder as to what they allow in their room. To each their own, providing it is legal. A mIRC connection can, to the untrained eye fool someone else into believing that the connection is infact a java user, however to the trained eye it's simply not possible. CR provides opers with many ways to ascertain non-genuine java connections, needless to say, I am not going to list them here as they are trade secrets.

As for CR Java v's mIRC, well both can be 'annoying' as both support popups and channel CTCP and both can flood a room with either event. CR's Java applet also has smileys and miscellaneous avatars which can, to some, cause a flood. It's not the point though. If someone wants +j then I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect that users will respect the founder's wishes.

Re: Java identification. #32284 30/06/03 03:09 PM
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I think what he means is, why would a +j be any more useful than a mode to allow only mIRC, or only BitchX, or only Xchat? If the sole reason is "the admin should be able to allow whomever he chooses" then logically modes to discriminate against any given IRC client should exist. However thats not the case, they only made one for +j.

Re: Java identification. #32285 30/06/03 04:19 PM
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Raccoon Offline
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Exactly... but even more specifically, WHY.

Yes, the Admin/Founder can do as he whims... for he is god. But tell me god, why hast thou forsaken me? I mean, what had non-java client users done in the past to warrent such a mode into existance, let alone active use?

- Raccoon


Well. At least I won lunch.
Good philosophy, see good in bad, I like!
Re: Java identification. #32286 30/06/03 04:35 PM
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I can answer that.

CR is commercial software and popular in closed environments, meaning that it is present on 100's of corporate LAN's in addition to being used by Bigpond (an Australian ISP) and Webnet in the US to run public IRC networks.

Naturally if you pay good money for something you expect a great deal of configurability. +j by itself is small potatoes but one of many things that CR has which, to some, justifies the expense. There is many instances where only a java applet is required and +j is good for those purposes. In a corporate setting who needs mIRC or any other client when a corporate intranet page can have a java applet that connects to the room by having the visitor just click a button and without having to set anything up? You install CR and configure the HTML page with the applet and then the job is done. The alternative is to install CR or another IRCd of your choice and install a client on potentially 1000's of computers. The latter job is a bigger one. +j means that employees who like to stuff around with things will get a surprise when he downloads mIRC or whatever and tries to connect against his boss' wishes.

In the public domain, having seen +j rooms work successfully I can sympathise with a founder wanting to have +j. Look at it this way - there is millions of channels out there and another million yet to be founded, in knowing that, why bother objecting to someone wanting +j for his room? You are free to chat in another. The reason there is no modes to distinguish between IRC programmes is because of one simple thing - It's just not possible. CR Java can be distinguished against everything else only because it is native to the CR package and for no other reason.

One could argue against the mode that blocks unreg'd nicks too but the same principle applies, if you don't like it use another room.

Re: Java identification. #32287 30/06/03 04:42 PM
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I can understand why a corporate intranet would provide a java client for all their employees to use. I can see that being very useful. However I can't see why that implies having to ban everything except the java client.

And you are arguing something that wasn't asked. No one is saying "channel ops should never have such an ability" we are saying WHY should they? Why is it useful? None of the examples you provided really convince me. As I said, why does the fact that a company gives everyone the java chat to use rather than installing mIRC on every machine imply that the guy who installed mIRC himself can't use it? I don't see a connection between the two ideas. It makes no sense to me why you would want a channel that is only allowed to have java users.

Oh and btw you say it's not possible to determine if a client is say mIRC, well it's just as easy to screw up with javachat. I could easily fake the CR java chat. So +j is no more accurate than doing a CTCP version and seeing if it says mIRC. If someone wants to trick CR, they can do it.

Re: Java identification. #32288 30/06/03 04:54 PM
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No one is saying "channel ops should never have such an ability" we are saying WHY should they?

That is the same question really. You are asking me to justify why such a restriction is necessary however that is not my role or even my aim. I am just confirming that it's there and that it has its uses. Look at, say, MSN. They have a global webchat restriction, aside from the ability to trick the software in mIRC of course. CR can do the same thing. The room mode +j just means that the function can be used at a local level instead of server-wide so I don't have a problem with it. I can't see why it is hard to accept given that most networks don't run the function anyway.

So +j is no more accurate than doing a CTCP version and seeing if it says mIRC. If someone wants to trick CR, they can do it.

Yes, there's ways around it, as I said before. There's also ways for opers to discover the tricks so while it's easy to trick the software it is also easy to get caught doing it. We could sit here all night and argue for/against the +j option however it's not going to get us anywhere because the function has been around since CR was first developed.

Re: Java identification. #32289 30/06/03 06:43 PM
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That is the same question really. You are asking me to justify why such a restriction is necessary however that is not my role or even my aim. I am just confirming that it's there and that it has its uses.

Well, I would think, considering the type of people we are(programmers, real hackers, the creators of the digital world), that you owe it to yourself to answer these questions rather than just taking it with a grain of salt. Don't just do something and say it's done and tell people that it's there to be lived with and not questioned.

Why don't they want mIRC clients in their channels?
Why don't they want Blacks in their bathrooms?
Why don't they want fries with that?

These are all questions we should ask ourselves, and not take 'just because' as an answer.

- Raccoon


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Good philosophy, see good in bad, I like!
Re: Java identification. #32290 30/06/03 07:41 PM
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Quote:

Why don't they want fries with that?

A better question is why do I go to McDonalds, order an ice cream, and then they ask me if I want ketchup smile

Re: Java identification. #32291 30/06/03 09:56 PM
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The_Game Offline
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Quote:

A better question is why do I go to McDonalds, order an ice cream, and then they ask me if I want ketchup


...Or the dreaded "Hot Apple Pie" LMAO

Re: Java identification. #32292 01/07/03 12:16 AM
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Well, I would think, considering the type of people we are (programmers, real hackers, the creators of the digital world), that you owe it to yourself to answer these questions rather than just taking it with a grain of salt.

I don't fall into any of the above catagories, I'm an engineer and like playing with dangerous voltages instead and since you don't seem to understand English very well I will repeat myself using more eloquence:

CR IS NOT MADE BY ME SO I CAN NOT SAY WHY THEY ADDED THE +J FUNCTION.

I don't know why Henry Ford painted all his cars black either. But like +j, it just happened that way and when he was questioned he'd just say "You can have any colour you like, as long as it is black." It's a salesman's way of saying, if you don't like the colour choice then buy a Tarrant or Rolls Royce.

Why don't you do something realistic and email Webmaster's for an official response? If at the end of the day you are still offended by the function then you really shouldn't be using IRC.

What praytell is the problem anyway? It is a function that can be used to restrict or classify room usage, just the same as +m, +R, +i, +k, +AM <#Roomname>, +N <#Roomname>, +O <#Roomname> and maybe a few others I don't immediately recall. I could also set bans and restrict people using certain scripts, especially those that come off the factory floor with a preset user ID and a chatter that has no real idea of how to change it to avoid the ban. I could also restrict the channel to block AOL lusers. I could also auto-kick anyone who has a Guest nick. Most of these can be done on any server in the world and it is indeed quite common and expected that some or all of the above happens.

By the way, they are chips, not fries. :tongue:

Re: Java identification. #32293 01/07/03 07:01 AM
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Actually not all of Fords older cars were the generic black I was a part owner of a "1925 Ford Model TT Truck" with my stepfather which was sitting in someones barn for nearly 80 years in its originality which was a forest green color and of course We did restore it to look newer using authentic parts to rebuild it...the paint job was touched up but it was green and looked similar to the one shown on this persons webpage.

The only difference between my truck and the one pictured, the wheels on mine were original and the rims were made of wood and were the natural wood color, as well as the wood siding the natural wood color and the bed of the truck itself was indeed wood too. Not to mention my truck went for $10,000 dollars at an antique auto show at an auction back in Michigan last june...My stepfather used his half of the money to purchase another one he found sitting in some farmers field and is currently restoring it..

Although, i'm not sure about other colors other than red, black, or green that I have seen on original autos of that era but I thought I would reply anyways smile


Re: Java identification. #32294 01/07/03 03:29 PM
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Ford used black until Chevy (I think it was Chevy) didn't. Once Chevy started offering color options, people modified Ford's "you can have any color... as long as it's black" to "you can have any color... as long as it's not a Ford." Meaning, once Ford's sales went down, they realized maybe people did want more than just black.

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