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Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat client #95193 22/08/04 11:38 PM
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joshmelvin Offline OP
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I will be upfront about my request, completely. I have been looking for a TOS, or any form of rules mandating the use of this chat client and the creation of rooms. I have been unsucessful thus far. Why am I looking for this? Because I have begun working on a project in coaliton with other chat sites to end the use of pictures depicting underage models as well as the use of "age play". I will reffer any who have objections to this to Title 18 ,Chapter 110 of the United States Code. Such acts are forbidden by law. It has been brought to my attention that there are several rooms in which age play is allowed and the very names of said rooms indicate such is taking place. As I see it, the owners of this chat client software can either work with me or against me.

I can go on for about on hour giving reasons why this should not be allowed, but I shouldn't have to. At this point, as I have informed you, there is no denying that such acts are taking place on your software. If you want to work with me on this, then you have my email address and may contact me and I will speak with those concerned about what my intentions are. -Upsetting stuff removed- And as a father, brother, and friend, I will see that I have done everything in my power to stop this. A simple link to the rules will be acceptable, thank you.

Contact for those wishing to understand and/or help:

joshmelvin@sbcglobal.net


Last edited by Mentality; 22/08/04 11:57 PM.
Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95194 22/08/04 11:53 PM
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Mentality Offline
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Hi there, and welcome to the mIRC message boards.

Unfortunately, you have been slightly misinformed. mIRC has absolutely *NO* control whatsoever over what channels are created, what data is transferred between those channels or what those channels are specifically set up for. mIRC is just a 'client' that allows users to connect to IRC. A good analogy is the old "Internet Explorer to the Internet" one:

Internet Explorer is a browser that allows you to view web pages. It has absolutely no control over what is on those web pages, and Microsoft (the company who owns IE) cannot possibly be held liable.

Translated to mIRC:

mIRC is a client that allows you to connect to IRC. It has absolutely no control over what is in those IRC channels or on those IRC networks, and Khaled (the person who owns mIRC) cannot possibly be held liable.

Due to the generally 'unmoderated' forum that is IRC, you have only a few options:

1) Find the specific IRC channels and get the IPs of the people that are sharing illegal files. Report these people to their respective ISPs, illegal sharing is generally unacceptable
2) Report these channels to a network IRC Operator and see if you can get the channel closed.
3) Report their IP to your local law enforcement so that it may be dealt with appropriately and legally.

Either way, there is little we can do on these boards to change what people do on IRC. Perhaps CyberAngels.org can provide further advice (they have no affiliation with this site or mIRC).

Edit: As I'm sure someone else is itching to point it out, IRC is a 'global' thing - it is used by people all over the world. The laws of the United States do not govern the world, which is one of the many factors that complicate what is 'illegal' and what is not on IRC.

Regards,


Mentality/Chris
Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95195 23/08/04 12:21 AM
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joshmelvin Offline OP
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As I assumed this is the response I will get I will reffer you to Napster and the lawsuites revolving around copyright enfringment currently underway. You are correct by stating that the laws of the united states do not govern the rest of the world, but the united states is not the only country with such laws. As well, the users of this client software in the united states fall under the shroud of the United States Code. That being said, allowing such to take place can be considered aiding and abeding. We can go round and round about this, all I asked for were the rules governing the use of this chat client. I will also point out, that this chat client, if the base of operations is within the United States, fall directly under the jurisdiction of the United States Code as well. As I said, work with me or against me, it doesnt matter. I can find out the information I need through other channels and take appropriate actions.

Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95196 23/08/04 12:31 AM
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Napster revolved around a centralized network that was run by -you guessed it- Napster. Mentality has already used the Internet Explorer analogy once, didn't it occur to you that nobody has been able to (or should be able to) sue Microsoft for making a computer program simply because it uses protocols which can connect to servers which are capable of hosting material that may be illegal in some parts of the World?

Quote:
I will also point out, that this chat client, if the base of operations is within the United States, fall directly under the jurisdiction of the United States Code as well

- It's not. Do some research.

Quote:
As I said, work with me or against me, it doesnt matter. I can find out the information I need through other channels and take appropriate actions.

- Hi. Excuse me, who the hell are you and why are you riding in here on your high horse? Care to give anything by way of an explanation as to why you've decided to come here with your self-righteous attitude, throwing around threats with an obvious lack of knowledge on the subject matter?


Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95197 23/08/04 12:43 AM
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Mentality Offline
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"Hi. Excuse me, who the hell are you and why are you riding in here on your high horse?"

Starbucks_mafia says it all really.

I have done my best efforts to be polite, both in the reply here and the email to you as I am with everyone - no matter how heated and personal you feel this subject is, please do not speak to me, or anyone else, in such a rude manner.

Napster is not mIRC. mIRC cannot be held responsible and will not be held responsible (and there have been 546486 legal threats in the past) for the contents of IRC channels.

Let's not forget there are a vast number of IRC channels that have been the meeting place of many long-term, real life friends, that have been spawned and continue to be born on IRC.

Regards,


Mentality/Chris
Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95198 23/08/04 02:45 AM
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People should be more educated before posting somthing like this, I can't help but laugh.

Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95199 23/08/04 03:04 AM
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joshmelvin Offline OP
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Interesting responses, but typical. I will explain however. If you watch the news you will see stories of children being preyed upon by pedophiles finding them on line. You will find stories of children being abducted, raped, killed. High horse? No, because I was a victim of that as were two of my nieces. Why am I now doing something about it? Because I, like the rest of you, utilize a chat room to spend some time and have some fun. Unfortunately, it was brought to light that certain members of this community are engaging in age play and posting child pornography. Why is this a problem? Well pick up a psychology book and you might find the education you seek there. Allowing this opens the doors for pedophiles to step through. Ask yourself this simple question: Would you want your son or daughter abducted by someone and forced into perfoming sexual acts? I doubt your answer would be yes and if it was, then you need to seek some proffessional help. I am a father and I have suffered through being molested at a young age. Now I have the chance to shut another door for those people who thrive on doing this to children. If you see that as a problem, I could care less. I am not doing this alone and while I have gotten the same response from a few, the majority of chat sites want to solve this problem and are interested as to what I propose.

No, microsoft shouldnt be sued for creating a software that can access illegal sites, but there are checks and balances present on the internet that arent present on Mirc. Would it be so very hard to put these checks and balances into place? No, actually it wouldnt.

If a person standing on US soil is engaged in acts of pedophilia, then they can and should be charged. The narrow mindedness of your responses astounds me and leads me to believe that you simply dont care that this is taking place and that it effects our children. Perhaps if it happened to one of yours you would be standing beside me and not against me. As I said before, I can go through other channels to seek the information I desire and I already have. The FBI has a unit designed just for such a thing and they have been more than helpful thus far. Have a good day.

Last edited by joshmelvin; 23/08/04 03:08 AM.
Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95200 23/08/04 03:11 AM
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joshmelvin Offline OP
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Sorry, I forgot one thing. I have no desire to see Mirc removed from circulation. I have a desire to see the rooms where age play is taking place that are hosted on this chat client removed and banned from returning. I have a desire to see that it is kept safe for children who utilize this as a means of chatting. Something needs to be done, period.

Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95201 23/08/04 03:31 AM
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tidy_trax Offline
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I agree that sexual abuse is a disgusting act and people that do it should be punished and/or get professional help (if it's due to a mental illness of some sort) - I also feel the same way about people that look at child pornography, however... you are still missing the point.

mIRC is a chat client that connects to IRC (IRC is what hosts the "chat rooms" you speak of), mIRC does not host the channels (rooms).

The only thing khaled could possibly do to help combat this is:

1. Don't allow people to join channels with certain words in the name, also not allow people to download files with certain words in the name.

Or

2. Log everything everyone does and send it back to himself and/or the FBI to see who is doing what.

There is an obvious problem in both of these "solutions":

1. People can simply call their channel something like "#chat", rather than "#childporn", same with their files.

2. Violation of privacy, a lot of people (including myself) wouldn't use a chat client that "spies" on you (of course that's if you knew it was spying).

Of course they could also just use a different irc client.

Khaled cannot do anything to stop these people, his client connects to IRC, it doesn't and cannot control what goes on in it.


New username: hixxy
Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95202 23/08/04 09:45 AM
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It's really very simple.

The only people who can set "terms of service" for an IRC network are the administrators of that network - NOT the creators of any of the many clients (like mIRC, Bitch-X, Klient, Snak, Irssi etc.), for many different operating systems, that ALL happen to be able to connect to that same network.

Problems with illegal behaviour on IRC networks should also be directed to the administrators of those networks - in the same way as you would complain about a paedophile website to the relevant Internet Service Provider and not to Microsoft, the makers of the browser that lets you look at it.

Note too that there are literally thousands of networks out there. Tthere is no single entity that is IRC - have a look at the Netstat.de website for confirmation of this - and therefore there can be no standard TOS binding on all IRC users.

I am sure that many (most) people on this forum agree that paedophilia, sexual predation and harrassment are a bad thing, and I am sure that Khaled, mIRC's author, feels the same way - that doesn't mean that we are in a position to do anything about it, though. (If we were, don't you think law enforcement would already have insisted that we do so?)

I would finish with two points.

Firstly, the problems you raise are all very well known and well publicised. Whole websites exist to help parents help children avoid sexual predators. The fact that law enforcement, network administrators and other agencies have been unable to stamp out such vile behaviour is of course disappointing (although perhaps not surprising), but they ARE trying.

Secondly, while I wish you success in your endeavour, you will not be even remotely successful unless you address yourself to the right people - which software authors are not. No software can yet modify/control user behaviour in a chat scenario.

You have to understand that IRC is a lot older than the mIRC client - it is necessary to overcome the confusion that inevitably arises from confusing the two, very similar, sets of initials!

PM


IRCnet & DALnet @#travelersinn
:-: IRC for fun and relaxation :-:
Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95203 23/08/04 10:02 AM
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zack Offline
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- Teach the children how to react in situations like being approached by a stranger on IRC.
- Do not allow young children to go on IRC alone.
- Report any misdemeanors you encounter to the IRC Network Administrators, ISP Administrators, law enforcers.

Do this and the pedophiles will realise that it's useless to try and coax children on IRC. Parent's role is to teach their children how to stay clear and, if the need arises, react to bad situations.

They'll always exist, they'll just spread their claws through every medium to communicate. The same that murderers, thieves, poverty, etc will always exist.

Yes, there is something terribly wrong when a person feels the need to have sex with a youngster, but there is also something terribly wrong when a youngster doesn't know how to react to the situation to make it stop.


You won't like it when I get angry.
Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95204 23/08/04 11:30 AM
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- Teach the children how to react in situations like being approached by a stranger on IRC.
- Do not allow young children to go on IRC alone.
- Report any misdemeanors you encounter to the IRC Network Administrators, ISP Administrators, law enforcers.


Well said.

Recently I posted some messages on a blog of a former mate (now not really a mate) because he has this idea that getting rid of IRC will solve problems associated with on-line paedophilia. After I told him that he's dreaming I said much the same thing you did.

JoshMelvin: As has been highighted, you are barking up the wrong tree. It's a touchy subject and open to many debates in many places but there is a precedent set that if you are committing a crime on the Internet then you could be liable under the laws of either the country you are presently in or the laws of the country that a victim is in. It depends on alot of things, especially when it involves two countries with extradition treaties in place and what particular laws are being broken.

In addition to zack's remarks I'll add that if you don't want to be a victim of on-line crime then don't tell people who you are or where you live, your phone number, email address, etc. They can only find out what you tell them, it's that simple.

Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95205 23/08/04 11:31 AM
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Talea Offline
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Very interesting post. I for one agree I do not want child porn etc in IRC chat rooms BUT and this is a big BUT, chat rooms are not governed by the United States or their laws nor should the client mIRC. It is used internationally and I am an example of an intenational user who is NOT governed by United States law.

By making an irc client illegal (so to speak), is like making us not use IE or firefox or whatever browser we choose to explore the net. Can't be done, shouldn't be done

Such chat rooms can be avoided... don't go in them. However if someone does see such acitivity that's why there is the logging system in mIRC.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Talea




Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95206 23/08/04 12:39 PM
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You're barking up the wrong tree. mIRC isn't managing chat rooms, mIRC is just used to connect to them. It's like yelling at your TV because of what's broadcasted, it's just futile.

Also, "age play" does not involve the abuse of children, and it's not the role of you, me, the mIRC board or the US government to regulate it. Child pornography is already illegal in most countries that host IRC servers.

Re: Rules Governing the use of the Mirc chat clien #95207 23/08/04 06:11 PM
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Krejt Offline
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Main point in this discussion, as Rounin already said; "mIRC isn't managing chat rooms".

There is nothing 'hosted on this chat client', there is nothing we can do to stop people from mis-behaving. Please do some more reading, try the IRC Intro for a start. Also the information about conflicts on IRC might help you to get things right.

Of course we will try to help you when you have additional questions, but not in this thread.