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a continuation of civil debate? #92831 04/08/04 10:31 PM
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NightCrawler8283 Offline OP
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i want to take this time and continue on a thread created by siyavesh.

This user has created a program that will give the SAME transparency features to mirc as Xchat has. i dont care what anyone else says about the set layer stuff. i know the differences in what each client offers.

but. the program he has created is a very useful tool. i use it all the time. now with the population on irc growing STILL in the millions. and there being someone (only one person) such as me who uses this transparency program. wouldnt it be safe to say that there are probably hundreds if not thousands of other users who might find this lil program useful?

so why delete where it can be found? and who they can ask for problems.

granted that the thread that was created had some unreasonable tones. why not just delete those flames like you moderators do with everyone elses posts and leave his personal information there? after all. wouldnt it be his choice to leave certain personal information as is if he so choses to do so?

as far as deleting where the program can be found. i dont see it as advertising. for the fact that there is no self gain in the matter. he saw a opportunity to offer something to the mirc users and took it upon himself to release it.

and if someone tries to come back at this with the "oh, its probably got a virus" bit. just keep in mind that im sure that no one on this board has never once downloaded something that wasnt entirely legal or has never cracked a program or has never downloaded something from a site that they have never been to before. besides. i dont think someone who writes a program to help and posts it on the boards would give out a virus after openly stating their name, origin and whatever else information.

now the only reason i took the time out of my day to write this is because i noticed that certain moderators have taken it upon themselves to make the decisions for thousands of other people who i believe all have the right to make their own choice. and when i see a moderator taking it upon themselves to make a decision based on the wrong reasons such as blunt hatred or dislike for someone else. its a little childish in my eyes.

of course i, myself am guilty of doing such things towards mentality. we have had or rotten spots with oneanother. but we both know we have valid points and disagreements and have learned that they are just opinions and different forms of helping people.

so all i ask is next time someone posts a fix or a feature that can be used in or conjunction with mirc. just let it go. take it upon yourself to test it out. show the good points and the bad points. test it for a virus. but for christs sake. dont delete it cause of dislikes.

any comments to what i have just written. please send me a private msg. because i will not read nor respond in the post. so replying to this with intention on me reading it will be a waste of time


-Nick (Darko)
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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92832 05/08/04 12:22 AM
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The threads that siyavash started advertising his transparency program were not only locked due to the advertising...but also due to the arrogant, flaming, outright offensive behaviour that was displayed towards visitors, regulars and moderators of the forum mostly by him (or started by him). Several threads turned into flaming threads. From then on it was blatant disrespect and disobediance towards forum rules to post further threads advertising the program.

This is also something which applies to everyone, not just siyavash - Moderators, regulars and visitors are not expected to have to virus check programs posted on the forums to make sure they're ok. An example needs to be set. It is not ok to advertise. If we allow one person, we should allow everyone else. The point of this forum is to help people out, suggest features for mIRC to Khaled, report bugs to Khaled about mIRC, and 'discuss' things preferably related to IRC/mIRC/Computers in the general discussion forum. This is not a place to archive your program that's the best thing since sliced bread. There are other website for that - sites that are specifically set up for you to give as much of a glamorous description to your program as you want, that have the purpose of virus checking your submission, in some cases to review it and to give it to the public in their archives. This is not one of those sites. If your program is particularly spectacular, try emailing Tjerk and see if he'll include it in the More Info section on the site.

Not to say your program should never be mentioned - if, say, you've made a program that can DCC transfer cookies, and someone posts a feature suggestion about it, it may well be helpful to say 'I did make a program for that, I uploaded to <somewebsite>.com and you can get it here'. That is different however, and more acceptable, than actually making a separate thread about it and deliberately focusing attention on your addon to forum browsers.

This is not a matter of freedom of speech, supression of views and so forth - it's a matter of keeping this forum clean of 'spam', setting an example, and being fair.

Regards,


Mentality/Chris
Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92833 05/08/04 12:28 AM
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Quote:
as far as deleting where the program can be found. i dont see it as advertising. for the fact that there is no self gain in the matter. he saw a opportunity to offer something to the mirc users and took it upon himself to release it.


and as far as the me saying that moderators should try it out and test it. you misunderstood entirely. i was shooting for those who knock it before they try it. if your going to rip into a program say what u dont like about it and or what u DO like about it.

and it wasnt advertising. its not a program that has been ftp'd to mirc.com. he gave a site where it can be found. where he can be found (which is also something we allow users to add in their personal information. hell. i have my server and channel advertised in my signature)

of course he was rude. but why not repost a solution. instead of mocking. makes things worse from what i see OUTSIDE of the box.



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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92834 05/08/04 12:35 AM
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It wasn't specifically addressed to you (as you did say you weren't going to read any replies) or your elusive 'point', but rather making my own point about WHY people's threads are edited etc. which clearly is relative to your post.

Next time someone advertises their program which is, according to them, going to be very useful to users who want mIRC to have X addition, I will not just be 'letting it go'.

In response to the edit of your post:

Freely allowing (and therefore encouraging) people to download programs from untrusted websites posted by untrusted users is not very good practice. I explained quite clearly why his reposts were locked. It is totally unacceptable to go on posting about the same issue when 4-5 other threads relating to the same thing have been locked in the past.

Regards,


Mentality/Chris
Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92835 05/08/04 09:49 AM
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Has it been tested to be secure? I don't know specifically of anyone who's done that. I had a brief private conversation with siyavash about it after the threads were locked during which he bragged about how many users were using it (55 in case you were wondering). When I made the point that many of them probably just downloaded it to either see if it did what he claimed or to test it for security reasons rather than to use it he replied with "They ARE using the app because the ssl verify service which it has shows it everyday!". Now, I don't know about you but on the face of it that sounds like the program is reporting usage statistics to him. Of course it's just a presumption based on that statement, I haven't used the application - it's possible it does this and notifies the user, or it's possible he didn't really get what I was saying and he was talking about something else. Or perhaps he just said it to try and prove me wrong. But has anyone actually checked that it isn't doing anything malicious or just 'sneaky' like usage reporting?


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92836 05/08/04 10:24 AM
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I took the liberty of downloading it, and to be perfectly honest saw no real use for it, but thats me I dont like transparency, and besides that 'Normal' setting seems somewhat buggy after setting transparency but nevertheless on running the application it pops up a nice 'Connecting to Verify Server' which I havent checked what it sends/requests but oh well I dont see a reason for it to do so..

Eamonn.

Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92837 05/08/04 04:20 PM
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NightCrawler8283 Offline OP
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i have been using this program for a while now. i like the transparency.

yes it does connect you to a verify server. and have concluded that its harmless. it ONLY sends how much the program is used. but speculate as you wish.


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92838 05/08/04 04:49 PM
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Surely if it's an SSL stream as his comment stated it's not possible to see the content of what it's sending and so you have no position to tell whether it's harmless or not. The very name 'verify server' sounds dodgy to me. What exactly is it supposed to be verifying?


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92839 05/08/04 09:48 PM
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usage? winamp does the same thing. but many people use that and dont care. i havent had any funny goings on with my computer. no viruses. nothing. so one would assume its safe?


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92840 05/08/04 10:30 PM
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Whether it is safe or not is neither here nor there. We are not going to make a special rule for siyavash just because his program has been checked by some people. It is unfair to all the other people who have either posted threads and had them edited in the past, or have held back from posting their program because they know it would be lame and against rules.

If siyavash wishes to distribute his program then he may submit it to any number of websites. People on this forum are more than aware of how to contact him. He is no longer welcome to this forum and the issue is not up for debate. As MIMP said in the last thread - posting is a privilege, not a right. He thoroughly abused that right, and has now lost it. We do not want nor need someone crusading on his behalf, he was given plenty of chances.

It would be appreciated if this topic was now dropped - siyavash was banned so that this nonsense would stop being brought up over and over again and I am now sick of hearing about him and his program. The topic has grown old and irrelevant.

Thank you smile

Regards,


Mentality/Chris
Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92841 06/08/04 12:03 AM
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Winamp asks you if it can report anonymous usage statistics. And AFAIK it doesn't use any form of encrypted transmission to do so, so people can check the content of the message. Not to mention that Winamp is produced by a well-established company who could be held responsible if something were malicious in Winamp. I'm not saying sivayash's program does do anything unwholesome, I'm saying it could, and neither you nor I know for sure one way or the other. I'm not willing to take the risk (hypothetically that is, since transparency doesn't float my boat anyway), and given the extreme amount of spyware and malware found on the average person's computer perhaps we'd all be a little bit better off if everyone were more careful about taking these sorts of risks.


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92842 06/08/04 01:22 AM
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make a new rule. help people. and its impossible to ban someone from a forum. just re-register. and my post.. if you had taken my reply to heart u would have understood that the post wasnt directed entirely at siyavesh. was an idea. not a damned revolt against your majesty. all i wanted to say was if someone has a fix or a workaround then he/she should be allowed to allow people the information on what it is and where to get it. and if there is a problem with it. contact info. so. if you associate the word advertise with any display of a website or contact information such as a chat room/network. then you might as well ban everyone else who comes here cause as you can see. most of us have our network and or channels in our bios or signature.


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92843 06/08/04 01:27 AM
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There's a difference between wanted advertising and unwanted advertising (aka spam).

If someone made a post saying "how can I make my windows transparent??", then he posted a link in that thread, it would be wanted advertising.


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92844 06/08/04 01:28 AM
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who is to decide if its unwanted?


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92845 06/08/04 01:32 AM
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Making a seperate thread where nobody has asked a question about transparency will be classed as unwanted by many people.


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92846 06/08/04 01:34 AM
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but why should those who find it unwanted outweigh those who do accept it?


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92847 06/08/04 01:35 AM
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Because if you can't please everyone you should please the majority, if the decision doesn't have some bad side affects.


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92848 06/08/04 01:37 AM
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maybe the mojority accept it. cause i only ever see a select few out of the thousand who post here complain. so why should 3 people who complain have say over a thousand people?


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92849 06/08/04 01:40 AM
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The only people on here that i've seen bothered by it being deleted are you and siyavash, and siyavash shouldn't really count since it's obvious he would be annoyed - 1 (2 if you want to count siyavash) person is not a majority.

I would say there are many people that don't care enough to post whether they think it should stay or go.


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Re: a continuation of civil debate? #92850 06/08/04 01:42 AM
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I am and I'm not bothered by its deletion. just want to make a foothold on future issues. but thank you for the small debate smile


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