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Why won't Khaled.... #88893 02/07/04 06:25 PM
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MircMania Offline OP
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Why won't he allow you to compile special .exe files you load with mirc? Maybe he could make the language a little more sophisticated so you could do everything with the Mirc language and he could do away with the need for dll files in another language forever.


Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88894 02/07/04 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Why won't he allow you to compile special .exe files you load with mirc?

- Probably because there are thousands of people who already distribute malicious mIRC scripts and many many thousands who get 'infected' with them all the time - and that's when the milicious code is human-readable. Making it compilable in any way would just make that problem a hundred times worse. What good would a 'compiled' version be over the human-readable version? The potential for misuse far outweighs the speed benefits anything like this could accomplish. Removing the need for DLLs entirely would mean adding Windows API capabilities into mIRC scripting and therefore supporting a host of C features such as structures, pointers, etc. that simply aren't suited to a scripting language. In my opinion it's far better to leave mIRC scripting as what it is - a scripting langauge for an IRC client - rather than try and make it into a kludgey programming language to help those 1% of tasks that can't be accomplished with mIRC scripting as it is.


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Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88895 07/07/04 10:31 PM
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If I wasn't so lazy I'd go into a long rant on why I disagree with you, but I don't think it's worth the time or energy. I am just going to say this:

Not everyone writes malicious code. Maybe you've been under a rock somewhere, but there are programs called "virus scanners". Maybe you've heard of them? If mIRC Scripting was a compiled language, anti-virus companies could add support for mIRC scripting.

It's a wonder you actually use Microsoft Windows and mIRC knowing they both are not open source. Afterall, how do you know what's actually going on in the code since you cannot view it? mIRC is for Windows. The majority of Windows applications are closed source. If you like open source so much, why not use *NIX? There are many IRC clients that run under *NIX operating systems that are fully open source.


There many benefits of compiled code. Some of the benefits are:

1. Less CPU and system resource usage.

2. Compiled code runs much faster.

3. No more having to worry about your script being ripped or modified with an integrated backdoor.


Finally, I just want to say that I am all for a closed source mIRC Scripting language.

Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88896 07/07/04 10:41 PM
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Whilst antiviruses exist, you only have to see the amount of infected users on some IRC networks to see how many people do not benefit from them. Not everyone is computer savvy. Not everyone knows about backdoors and viruses and what to look out for. Some of the top scripting websites don't accept .exe files with scripts either.

Given the amount of backdoored/infected scripts that actually become popular (despite savvy user's best efforts to warn people) I have to agree this would be disastrous.

Regards,


Mentality/Chris
Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88897 07/07/04 11:55 PM
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Quote:
If mIRC Scripting was a compiled language, anti-virus companies could add support for mIRC scripting.


There isnt any difference between adding support for "compiled languages" as their is for "mIRC scripting" the principal is the same, i.e. to look for "markers" to identify abusive results..

And, there are a select few GOOD virus scanning companies that work in co-ordination with mIRC scripters to tackle the problems faced, most notiable #nohack@DALnet (although i'm not uptodate with their goings on currently) in the past they have sent code that contains "virus/trojan features" to a few virus companies.

The main reason why .exe files would be bad, is the fact that mIRC scripting would then struggle to remain an "open source" language and as a result be far more prone to abuse.

Eamonn.

Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88898 07/07/04 11:57 PM
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As an FYI it's a good idea to reply to the right person, I assume that wasn't directed towards me as the quote wasn't mine! smile

Regards,


Mentality/Chris
Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88899 08/07/04 12:36 AM
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Quote:
It's a wonder you actually use Microsoft Windows and mIRC knowing they both are not open source. Afterall, how do you know what's actually going on in the code since you cannot view it? mIRC is for Windows. The majority of Windows applications are closed source. If you like open source so much, why not use *NIX? There are many IRC clients that run under *NIX operating systems that are fully open source.

- First off I never said I was against closed source software or compiled languages, I said that a closed source scripting language for mIRC is unnecessary and would be used for malicious purposes. The key word there is 'unnecessary'. You see, for some programming tasks speed and efficiency are vital, mIRC scripting is certainly not one of those things, and for those who decide it is important mIRC supports COM, DDE, and DLLs so you can use an outside language. Microsoft are a well established company, mIRC is a well established IRC client, there is a company with an address - a trail leading back to their creators, so that if their software is intentionally malicious there is something that can be done about it. With mIRC scripting there is no such trail, and the requirement of one in order for a mIRC script to be considered 'safe' would be counter-productive to mIRC scripting as a whole. Not to mention that for the things that mIRC scripting is typically used for (and designed for) it wouldn't be worth a user's effort to ensure the software was 'safe'. Claiming anti-viruses could stop them is ridiculous, if you honestly believe that any AV software could reliably stop malicious code in the way you're suggesting then you're a fool.

Quote:
1. Less CPU and system resource usage.

- This is mIRC scripting, it doesn't take much system resources to do IRC related things anyway.

Quote:
2. Compiled code runs much faster.

- Again, this is mIRC scripting, what's the big hurry? And if it's such a problem you've got COM, DDE, and DLL support.

Quote:
3. No more having to worry about your script being ripped or modified with an integrated backdoor.

- Sorry but I consider 'rip-protection' to be the most pathetic excuse for a reason for a compiled language ever. It's only mIRC scripting, the simplest language that comes close to programming that I know of. It's almost as ridiculous as those people who write HTML and then intentionally obfuscate the markup to make it difficult to read in case someone 'steals' it. And no, no more modified scripts with backdoors, instead they come with them built-in from the start. Wonderful.


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Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88900 08/07/04 10:12 AM
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1. Less CPU and system resource usage.

Yep.

2. Compiled code runs much faster.

Yep

3. No more having to worry about your script being ripped or modified with an integrated backdoor.

Bzzzzzzzzt. There's never been a compiled backdoor? Who cares about rippers? Rippers cast bad reflections on themselves, not the author. I think people generally understand that if they get mIRC scripts from the author's website ONLY and that site is well trusted by many people then the chance of getting a back door is pretty slim.

Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88901 17/07/04 11:42 PM
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If you really want a compilated, fast, closed-source program, here is a way to get it :
1) Download a C compiler
2) Write your program in C
3) Compile it
4) In mIRC, paste this :

on *:start: run myprogram.exe

I can't see what your idea could add to mIRC...


Thinking is the worst disease of the brain.

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Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88902 18/07/04 03:17 PM
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Quote:
If you really want a compilated, fast, closed-source program, here is a way to get it :
1) Download a C compiler
2) Write your program in C
3) Compile it
4) In mIRC, paste this :

on *:start: run myprogram.exe

I can't see what your idea could add to mIRC...

Thinking is the worst disease of the brain.


Actually there are a number of reasons why you would want a compiled mirc script. If you were making a game that used high scores for example you would need to have it close-sourced. Or if you wanted to save and hide someone's password in a remotely dependable manner (and that is something any script should have) you would need it to be compiled. Not being able to compile means that anyone can just copy and paste another person's code so it forces people to write dlls to protect their code and means also that the code will be less efficient, which will often be significent. Running a program in C or another language is going to leave the program with no access to irc or mirc so I don't see any relevence in saying that at all, after all this is about doing things with mirc. I also suggested that maybe the language should be developed so it could be a full competitive language capable of doing anything since it is already so popular as it is.

Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88903 19/07/04 08:36 PM
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The reason mIRC scripting is so popular is because of the way it is at the moment.

Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88904 19/07/04 09:02 PM
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why not just write programs in C++ ?

Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88905 19/07/04 11:23 PM
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Quote:
why not just write programs in C++ ?


Why not just write that comment on a Java board or a Python board?

In answer to the other comment I think the reason mIRC scripting is so popular is because it connects to irc directly, is an quick and easy language to use and has a very nice interface and helpfile, so I think it could be turned into a full language.


Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88906 20/07/04 02:37 AM
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You could easily say all of that about c++ too wink

Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88907 20/07/04 02:39 AM
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Quote:
why not just write programs in C++ ?


Maybe c++ is hard for some of us? (like me)


New username: hixxy
Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88908 20/07/04 06:12 AM
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I was looking at some C++ code, and it looks very similar to the mIRC Scripting language. C++ looks like it's easy to learn. I am currently studying Visual Basic, and it is just as simple as the mIRC Scripting language.

Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88909 20/07/04 09:11 AM
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You can't be serious... mIRC scripting appeals to 'the masses' by a far greater degree than ANY programming language ever could or, more to the point, ever will. Let's not forget what we are dealing with here. Scripting is a way to enhance existing functionallity or tell a programme how to behave. It's not meant to be a super-efficient speed daemon as the size of most scripts are fairly small anyway.

Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88910 21/07/04 04:16 AM
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mIRC scripting appeals because of its simplicity, yes. But its exactly what you said it is - scripting, not programming. You wanna program, learn a programming language. I recommend c++.

Re: Why won't Khaled.... #88911 22/07/04 12:30 AM
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Anyway turning mIRC into a compiled language would be nearly impossible, because of the way it works : to compile the script, you have to mix the code with mIRC's code itself, and compile the global thing...

mIRC being closed-source, I don't think Khaled will create such a function.


Thinking is the worst disease of the brain.

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