Forums Feature Suggestions New Forum - commands

Would like to suggest a new forum where normal users would only be able to reply to topics. Each topic would be a command(identifier, etc) with the post consisting of the help file text.

ie topic: /debug - output raw server messages

The usefulness of this is assisting users writing scripts. Posts would be replied to with uses and further information on commands.

I realize it would contain quite a few topics, but it should also help cut down the repeat questions on a number of commands. If the current staff has their hands full I would be glad to help, if they see it as viable, as Im sure a number of others users would.

So basically you want a new forum for people who are too lazy to read the helpfile, and which is basically a copy of the helpfile (and in time: plus additional questions)? What makes you think those people will bother reading such a forum, instead of posting their question, just as they would now?

Yeah, if someone is not going to search the forum as it is now, they will not search a forum that is set up in that manner either. They will still ask their questions.

As far as people posting helpful ideas about a certain command... there are a few problems with that...

1) There are too many commands and most are inter-related.
2) There would be so many threads for any specific command that no one would ever want to read through all the "helpful hints."
3) It is really much faster to ask scripting questions in a scripting channel on IRC. There are many great ones that I use on a regular basis whenever I run into problems. And, if that doesn't suit you, there are already many sites that offer scripting advice in document format. And, of course, the mirc help file is an excellent source of information.

The suggestion came from the helpfulness of PHP's manual PHP coupled with the setup of mIRCs site.

I can sit for hours trying to figure the problem with a script when its a simple, and common syntax error not covered in the helpfile. This also goes for multiple solutions to a script and determining the most efficient means(ie var or set -l).

Sorry LotusofBorg, that didn't quite answer your question:

I'm not suggesting it will solve the thousands of 'help plz' posts. It should however, help those that are looking into larger more complex scripts and the novice users. Basically the people who do not bother posting a question and continue looking through the myrid of other sites. I doubt this will help control the current posters so much as it will draw more users attuned to casual scripting.

I can imagine what you're focusing on with this idea and I agree with it. I think it could be as nice as PHP.net's, if properly used and managed, of course.

Well, if people like yourself looked on the left for...

intro to mIRC
mIRC FAQ
and especially the..
Command List

You wouldn't have a problem.

..Which provide deprecated info, FYI. Therefore, actually you could have a problem.
Also, they're not interactive sources. I believe the key here should be being interactive. I'm not sure that I'm following the poster's idea, so I'll just proceed with my own views anyway.

People in charge of those files (I'm referring to all help files except mirc.hlp) wouldn't need to update them (IF they update them) everytime whatever changes; instead, the whole community would accurately fill the proposed board and providing lots of examples, which would be much better from any point of view, not only the novice. Who doesn't like examples?

Granted, you'd lose the offline facility of the current help files, but again, even if people prefered any sort of compilation of any further help docs, this one would be easier to obtain, since it'd be behind the whole message board community this time.

My opinion is that mirc.hlp is the only file we need to look after if we're wanting fast answers. It contains mostly syntaxes and the most important remarks around misc features. I could go far away and say I'd prefer it to follow the same idea and suggest to let it be online, but I don't think this would work, since it's way too useful to take the risk of not being available offline.
The other help files, however, contain more paragraphs/texts/articles/whatever (except the command list, obviously, but again it's deprecated); these demand further reading and are much simpler than mirc.hlp. So why not have their concepts here, where info would be always accurate and more examples and opinions could be considered, all available at the same source?

Although you could, I don't see a need to alter the actual hlp files. Perhaps by putting a link at the end of each topic/item to its forum topic would be all thats called for if it is altered.

The forum topics really only need usage and a description on its intended use. ie $scid(N)[.id]

The downfall to this suggestion is that this particular forum would need to be moderated to keep the replies on topic.

To keep down on the moderating, perhaps limit access to registered users(mirc registration). But again that would require a little more work as well.

The big difference between mIRC and PHP, which is why the PHP website you refwerred to makes sense, but a similar site for mIRC does not, is that mIRC comes with a helpfile that explains all the commands - my PHP editor (whether it be notepad or wordpad) does not.

It is not possible to restrict access to the forums to users who paid for mIRC. It also makes no sense, since most the users who ask questions on these forums didn't pay for it.

I'd hate to see anything with access limited only to registered users.
-new users can reasonably be expected to have a number of questions they need answers to during their 30 day trial.
-ppl change puters or need to reformat and (not having put it in a safe place) need to send off for their password.
-some ppl need more than 30 days to save the money to register

Just because mIRC comes with a help file, doesn't mean people are going to instantly understand what a particular identifier/command does, or where and how its useful, etc.

*general reply below*
I think the idea is good, however, I think it is a moot point when we already have forums in which people can search, etc.

I learnt scripginf rom the help file.. mIRC help has a find tab at the top, so that not only can u search by the exact command, but then you can do a keyword search and it will return files it's located your search in.

If you don't get it from the help file, that's why the forum is here..

Things have worked fine since (i think) version 2.x as far as users getting help. I don't see any reason to change it.

If php had given out a huge .hlp file, i bet you the online manual wouldn't exist, and would be using a forum.

That's why almost all identifiers in the helpfile come with an example. Then, there's the part of learning how to write code -- you try and test and play around. Something most people who want to write their code are unable or unwilling to do.

Thats all true. However, not everyone does that, some don't because they're too lazy, and others don't because they are ignorant, etc.

And, like I said, the idea is a moot point. The help file and the forums are good enough, and contain a fairly large amount of help.

Time to chip in with my usual comment:

<rant>

It is HIGH TIME that the help file was expanded (if not re-written) to include *all* of the commands and scripting features in mIRC.

It is ridiculous that users are expected to wade through god-knows-how-many "What's new" lists to find some things. (e.g., when was the "me" level in remotes last mentioned...? yet it still works).

I know that some people will say "Well, Khaled's too busy programming" but that misses the point - mIRC is a commercial product, and should be packaged like one. Pretending that it's still a geeky personal project that can get away with this won't cut it any more, sorry... there are too many thousand registered users out there.

</rant>

PastMaster

All you have to look is two places.. Help file, and www.mirc.co.uk/versions.txt.. A simple ctrl+f and typing "me:" found the following under mirc v3.8

23.Added "me" prefix to remote definitions, eg.:
me:1:ON JOIN:/msg etc...

Mirc has very sufficient documentation to script. As I had mentioned earlier, i taught myself to script using only the helpfile, and the examples that came with it. Anything not in the helpfile is out for a reason (whether it be outdates, in mirc simple for backwards compatability, or whatever the case may be). If you can't get an idea of how to use soemthing, thats why there are forums. This is as live of a help center as you are going to get, aside from going on DALnet and joining perhaps #mirc.

#scripting is also a good one on Dalnet... solved many problems there.

Two is too many, imho - especially when one is not even included with the basic package!

(The versions.txt that is distributed with mIRC is not the aggregated one that is on the website - and in your example, you KNEW what you were looking for, which is often not the case in practice.)

Frankly, it's a question of professionalism, and of respect for customers.

I am well aware of the various fora, discussion boards and help channels available (I taught myself to script, and op in a large help channel), but this is missing the point: the documentation is not up to standard, and there is no good reason for it not being so.

Need a handy real life example? I've just noticed this recent bug report thread - note in particular the comment by starbucksmafia.

PastMaster
IRCNet @#beginner

Since the aggregated versions text is easily available, and ppl are reminded of it and the FAQ on www.mirc.com IMO, saying its a "question of professionalism, and of respect for customers" just because it isnt included in each download isnt fair. It wouldnt surprise me to have ppl complain if they WERE included.

Certainly i can see the advantage to having the full versions info and the FAQ included in each download, but i can also see that many ppl wouldnt read them anyway or even want them. They are readily available for those who want them, and isnt that the whole idea?