Forums General Discussion Question to moderators

Why exactly do you guys now close threads, delete posts, modify posts, etc and NEVER give a reason? How are we supposed to know what we are doing wrong if we aren't told? I don't see anyone doing anything wrong in the "paperclip" thread, why was it closed? It was just a discussion. No one was geting upset, no one was arguing, yet it has been closed.

But, then again, instead of responding and saying why you don't like to explain yourselves, you'll probably just delete this post as well...

I think when a thread boils down to two people kicking a can back and forth, it begins to lose its signal-to-noise ratio. I'm certain the thread was locked because it became obvious to everyone that a feature suggestion was no longer being discussed and the general chatter had no end in sight.

What's worse, the two of you weren't even disagreeing with each other, but simply bashing a non-existant paperclip who wasn't present to defend himself. Sometimes people subconciously have to get the last reply in, and locking the thread breaks that cycle. This should have been pretty self evident.

- Raccoon

First of all, deleting a posting and closing a thread are totally different things. Postings are very very seldom deleted, but if so mostly because people really misbehaved themselves...

I guess one of the moderators watching the paperclip thread felt nothing really important or new was going to be added to the thread and wanted the discussion to move on to other things... and I guess he was right about that.

Well personally (as I've said before) I've had at least three posts that I can recall deleted that I haven't a clue what I did wrong. For all I know, I did the same thing wrong in all three. If I were told why after the first one, I wouldn't have done it two more times.

But even so, is it so hard to when locking a thread to say "I don't think this discussion is going anywhere" or when you delete a thread to send a private message to the user to explain why. It doesn't seem like much to ask to me...

I think that when threads are closed, it should be obvious to anyone reading them why they have been. ie: generally it has been reduced to unhelpful bickering/insults/flames or the thread has gotten carried away, or is seriously into beating a dead horse. As Raccoon stated so well: "Sometimes people subconciously have to get the last reply in, and locking the thread breaks that cycle. This should have been pretty self evident." I can recall several locked threads that include posts from a moderator saying essentially enough is enough, take it private.

As for modifying posts, surely its clear when someone sees:
"look, you <deleted by moderator> you should just go <deleted by moderator>....." with a note or post made reminding ppl that namecalling and insults arent needed, Or "hey come to my new website/network <deleted by moderator, please dont spam here>" WHY it has been edited? No, you have no way of knowing what pm i have sent to that user, but since its between me and that person, why should you? I send posters a pm about their posts requiring editing if i havent said why in a post. Altho i rarely delete a thread or post (other than crossposting, spam, or the amazingly vulgar insult) the poster involved gets a pm.

"...and NEVER give a reason"
"But, then again, instead of responding and saying why you don't like to explain yourselves, you'll probably just delete this post as well... "
no, you dont know what pms go between me and other users, any more than i feel they need to be informed of the ones that have gone between you and i. i have often said that if anyone questions my reasoning in any matter or has concerns, to feel free to pm me or catch me online. Those who have (including yourself) are well aware that i respond to them. When someone has questioned me in a thread, i have replied to that post.

in general what i may edit/delete, altho i consider each case on its own:
-insults, name calling, vulgarity (some of it quite inventive)
-spam
-real names and personal info like age/location/email/phone
-abuse
-incorrect info (rather than embarassing the poster if they havent corrected themselves or been politely corrected, i would rather delete it and the flames they have recieved as a result and pm them about it) (i dont include scripting corrections in this heading, since those can be subjective and learning experiences)
-nonsense like 57 emoticons or posts that consist only of lk4jvifmt$
-posts giving advice on how to evade (ie bans, school policy) or locations to find cracks/illegal downloads/hacking techniques

Indeed, if I *know* you deleted my post, I'm aware that you'll provide me with an explanation of why. The thing is, no where does it say "This thread was locked by ParaBrat" or "This thread was deleted by ParaBrat" like it does for editting. So it makes it difficult to know who is the one to talk to. And, without naming any names, on one occasion I did pm a moderator to ask why a thread I started was locked (to my recollection there was no insults, vulgarity, etc. on the thread), the response was "I didn't lock it, and I'm not in the habit of unlocking threads locked by someone else." When I then responded asking if the moderator could inform me of who did lock it, so I could pm them, I receive a reply basically saying, just like it doesn't show who locked it to users, it doesn't show it to moderators either, so the person said they were unable to inform me of who I should talk to.

Basically, with the exception of editted posts, the only way to find out who deleted/locked a thread is by polling all the moderators, that seems rather inefficient. Oh, and I'm not talking about posts such as "go to my site" or "get free software here" and stuff like that. To me, the reasons those get deleted are obvious. But like I said, I've had a couple of posts where my post (not even the entire thread, just my post) disappeared, and I haven't a clue why.

That moderator was correct, in general we have no way of knowing who locked a thread or deleted a post. I say "in general" because it is possible two or more of us may have had a discussion about a specific issue regarding a thread/post. If someone else locks a thread i wouldnt unlock it either since i may not be aware of any discussions that moderator had about it or what they may have seen that i didnt. I can recall a couple that were locked not due to the original content, but due to repeated abusive behavior by other posters. The only way to put a stop to it efficiently was to delete those posts and lock the thread. I can also think of multiple abusive posts on a thread that "innocent" users replied to, and once the abusive ones were removed, didnt make much sense to leave the replies. Any useful content caught in the middle, i usually create a post including those with nicks, not out of the realm of possibility that a "good" post could occasionally get lost in the mayhem tho, im not perfect.

Honestly, since i know all the moderators pretty well (and for several years) i do tend to trust their judgement and feel confident they have good reason for their decisions about deleting/locking. Of course, none of us is perfect, but I cant recall any locked thread that it wasnt clear to me one way or another why it was locked or that i thought shouldnt have been.

In future, if i lock a thread i will try to create a post stating i was the one who locked it even tho the why is clear so you can remove me from your polling list. However, as i've said before, in the event another poster was the cause i will gladly state the why, but not the who. I see no point in creating bad feelings amongst posters just because someone had a bad day or lost their patience.

I am in full agreement with codemastr here. I don't intend this to be a personal attack on anyone in particular but over the past two months I have seen the management of this board change alot, infact change too much and the issue raised by codemastr is the reason I simply cannot be bothered with participating here anymore. I still come and read comments but I am afraid that it is simply not worth the effort contributing because it is painfully obvious to myself and a few others here that just because an admin/moderator here is having a stinker of a day it means that being in possession of a delete buttom makes him right. I beg to differ and offer the view that a delete button might make someone bask in endless justification for their actions but it certainly doesn't make them right.

I never recall having one of my posts edited or altered by anyone with that power vested in them. Why? Simple answer, I have never broken any of the rules. However, I, like codemastr, and perhaps others here, have had posts removed without any reason given as to why or even to let us know by who so we can, if required, query the issue in order to have any apparent problems rectified. The lack of communication and the apparent lack of respect shown for the users here amazes me somewhat. Perhaps the fact that there are 25,000 registered users obviously means that it is time to treat regular contributors (HINT: The ones that do just as much helping, if not more, than Khaled, Krejt and all moderators combined) like numbers rather than an invaluable asset to this forum. Aside from this theory I fail to see why GENERAL COMMENTS are often treated with blatant contempt, an issue I raised via private message with Krejt twice and was met with ignorance each time. This in itself proves that consultation via private message holds no value to quality improvement here what-so-ever. Indeed I am typing this post with the knowledge that it may not be here tomorrow and quite frankly, given that I have raised the issue before, I really couldn't care less. I know one thing to be true though, I have seen threads here solely devoted to a hot topic of one kind or another which contains 50+ posts and not only have they died a natural death, IE: when everyone involved simply gets sick of repeating themselves over and again, but such threads are proven not to diminish the overall quality of discussions.

You guys, in my view, need to recognise that there are times when people are not going to have the same views and these places are here for various points of view to be put. Killing discussions for the fun of it or simply because you can is the direct opposite of what you should be trying to achieve. Take the MS Office paperclip discussion. There was no harm in what was being discussed. Yes: I agree it was getting a bit trivial. Does it really matter? No. Who gives a tinkers what people think of Clippit? I certainly don't. Personally I think Clockwerx's suggestion is unrealistic and irrelevant to mIRC's functionality. He's a Crow Eater so it's expected, though I still respect his right to make the suggestion and the rights of others to debate it. Then there was another thread, back when the issue of whether mIRC had become crippleware or not and I sat there and demanded an official response to the issue. Krejt responded and then two days later the thread was removed. Why? Did the removal of that thread achieve anything? Yes. Following that there was a further wave of questions about whether mIRC had become crippleware or not. Congratulations to whoever removed the thread, good to see they have a keen sense of foresight.

Anyway, as I said before, I simply cannot be bothered posting here anymore because I am sick and tired of what has happened to this place. Instead I will allocate the time I spent here on other and more worthwhile things such as what I will be doing for the rest of this week: going walkabout taking photos of wild goats, yowies and dropbears. I hope to find the Lithgow Panther too but I probably won't.

What is a 'Crow Eater'?

Someone from South Australia.

Ok, thanks

Haven't heard that expression before...

I think one of the main issues here that we keep failing to recognize, is the fact that this forum is not run by a democracy but by a dictatorship. (No, not a nazi dictatorship, but a dictatorship none-the-less.) We have no bill of rights, and we have no geneva convention. Things are done for a vision of a greater good, and that vision is not up for discussion or majority vote.

I don't like seeing posts or entire threads deleted, especially my own (of course), but mainly because it throws me off course and I lose my barrings (didn't i just post something lengthy last night?). I will agree that none of my deleted posts have really served any greater good for this forum as they were always side conversations and usually off topic at that. The type of stuff I see deleted is the type of stuff that nobody wants to appear in their search results when looking for help.

Case in point... My recent thread in the Developer Forum titled "Hey Khaled, how does WHOIS work?". You'll note that shortly after I started the thread, codemastr responded several times suggesting "see, Khaled will never respond." to which I replied "I bet he'll reply now just to spite you." None of these posts where wholly important to the topic at hand but were just side conversation. When Khaled did reply, he simply deleted this chatter without warning.

Why would he do this? Because none of the crap that was deleted was important or worth reading anymore unless you were there at the time it was being posted. Nobody needs to see or reference a week from now that codemastr got slapped in the face by Khaled's reply. (Nobody a week from now needs to read this post about me debating that nobody a week from now needs to see codemastr getting slapped in the face.) I only expect this post to be ultimately deleted aswell.


My point is that we are ultimately here on this forum to help people and to make feature suggestions. We are not here to have our opinions read or even regarded. Our opinions may be important to ourselves, but they're not important to everyone. It's a dictator's prerogative to stamp out said nonsense at his (their) own discretion. You're a religious man... do you argue with god (the gods)?

As silly as that sounds, the admins and moderators on these forums are our gods (or kings & queens). We may beseech of them and we may muse with them... but please DONT bitch and moan to them! Trust that their vision and their actions are for the better, or simply find a new faith (or new place to live).

- Raccoon

PS. There may be 25,000 registered users, but only 1,500 have ever posted.
This is still a pretty small kingdom.

But there is something that you're theory leaves out... we are the ones paying. IMHO that entitles us to have some say in how things are done.

People have long paid taxes to the king and offerings to their gods.
(and that was just to keep from being punished or damned)

Umm you're comparing going to jail and being damned to hell to *laugh* not being about to (legally) use mIRC? You don't see any flaws in your comparison?

You goto jail for not paying for mIRC too, dont you?

My point is that even though you pay for these things (like the right to live in camelot), you don't necessarily get a say in all matters (like why your brother lost his hands for stealing).

Now, if mIRC Co. Ltd. where to IPO and you became a major shareholder, then I'm sure your opinions might have more influence on the administrative operations at mIRC dot com.

I don't know what kind of laws they have where you live, but in the US (as you can see with the whole RIAA thing) the worst thing that is going to happen to you is a lawsuit, you're not going to jail over $20.


Again, I don't know where you live, but in the US we have the right to petition our elected representatives, we also have the right to choose who our representatives will be. So again I say, you're comparison is flawed.

There you go again thinking that the world is a democracy.

T h e   m I R C   F o r u m s   a r e   r u n   u s i n g   a   d i c t a t o r s h i p   m o d e l   o f   g o v e r n m e n t . . .   a n d   i t   w o r k s   j u s t   f i n e.   S o   d e a l   w i t h   i t.

As a matter of fact, MOST internet communities are run under this same model.

You have no right to vote here. No senate to represent you.
If you feel there is an oppressive tyranny here, start a revolt.
Just don't be suprised if you are struck down by a knight's blade.

I'm happy with the way these forums are run quite honestly, ass kissing aside.

Edit: If crap like this carries on, Khaled may decide this forum occupies too much of his time and remove it entirely. This I don't see happening, or wish to see happen, but it has and does happen with other similar forums for the same reasons.

I have noticed your decrease in posting, and am sorry for it and especially for the reasons you just explained caused it. You are one of the ppl here who always keep a cool head, give great help, and are patient with the most trying users. I have said often that our posters are what make this forum such a valuable resource. I admit it bothered me to read that you feel that i and others seem to have little respect for or communication with the posters. Altho i havent ever recieved a pm from you that i can remember, i do recall trying to send you some but you had pms disabled (which is also why i post this here instead of pm). I realize you have only my word for it, but i assure you that i reply to every pm i get, regardless of what the issue is or the rudeness that may be included and do so with courtesy and answer to the best of my ability. I dont think i have ever seen the need to delete one of your posts for content, but as i said in an earlier post, it isnt out of the realm of possibilty one of yours may have gotten deleted in the midst of mayhem.

While i as well have seen some "hot" threads die a natural death, i have also seen at least as many sink to new depths. When i have locked a thread or deleted posts with no redeeming value (unless you are in search of new and better ways to insult someone), i have done so after giving the matter thought and coming to what i felt was the right decision. Quite often i have received several pms already asking why on earth that thread wasnt closed. Since you and other posters may not see what garbage has been removed that caused the decision, it means asking for some trust based on my past actions. Perhaps too much to ask for.

Considering many of the threads i have read here, its obvious that ppl with differing opinions have been free to post. I have never deleted a post simply because i didnt agree with their view, not even when the poster was attacking me personally. Oops, correction, i did delete multiple posts from one user who seemed to delight in devising new obscene versions of my nick and suggested with appalling regularity that i go forth in solitude and multiply. However, since i wouldnt allow any other user to be treated that way, i didnt see why i should be subjected to it either. I honestly dont think anyone kills a discussion or deletes just for the fun of it or just because they can. I can think of countless threads with outspoken opinions as well as offtopic, essentially useless or generally silly posts. They arent locked or deleted.

I have tried my best to treat everyone fairly and with courtesy and dont remember seeing any moderator being nasty to a user. I respect that everyone has a right to their own opinion even if it differs from mine and try to stay neutral simply because i am a moderator. I cant speak to how anyone else decides on edits/deletes/locks, but i do defend the right of admin/moderator to make the decision they feel is best, just as i respect a posters rights to voice their opinion. I also accept that any post, any decision, be it by moderator, admin, or user wont be universally popular. Will they always be the "right" one, effectively worded? Prolly not, but we are after all only human.