Forums General Discussion General comment about the beta process

I really would appreciate if Khaled and/or Tjerk would reply to this to perhaps let the mIRC users in on the rationale behind mIRC's beta testing process.

It is apparent to me that with the release of mIRC 6.1, that the beta testing process being currently employed is no longer effective. What I am suggesting is not a public beta system, which based on the fact that it has been suggested numerous times and never actually implemented I'm assuming Khaled is opposed to; but rather a more open beta testing system. What I'm suggesting is that Khaled and/or Tjerk should recruit new testers. It is my belief that the current beta testers are either not doing enough testing, or they are just not very good at testing. I'm not saying there should be a "sign up to be a beta tester" form, I'm saying more/new beta testers should be selected. How exactly new testers are selected, well I guess that would be up to Khaled/Tjerk, but I do really think it needs to be done.

In addition to this suggestion, I would like to ask Khaled/Tjerk a few questions about the beta testing system currently in use.
1.) Approximately how many people are beta testers?

2.) How far in advance before the release of 6.1 were they given beta versions?

3.) What kind of qualifications do these testers have? (i.e., are they programmers who would know what kind of bugs are common, long time mIRC users who are intimately familiar with the way mIRC works and how to use it, or are they guys who happen to know Khaled in real life?)

4.) How many beta versions (on average) are released before a final build?

5.) Are new "major releases" intended to be a form of unofficial beta? (this is based on the pattern that after a N.X release, an N.XX release follows within a few weeks in most of the recent releases)

6.) Why has information about the beta process been kept so secret?

7.) Why is Khaled so opposed to allowing more people to help out testing mIRC?


I really would appreciate (and I assume the majority of the mIRC users would as well) if Khaled/Tjerk could respond to this post; I feel these are questions that really are deserving of having an official answer.

agreed there definatly needs to be some sort of change in the beta process of mirc. if there was a decent one there wouldnt be this huge disapointment as it is now

So, in short, you're asking if you can beta test mIRC? Awfully long post just for that.

As I said in this forum the testing phase should be reworked, where an official public beta version is released so it can be tested in real world scenarios. The more people who test it, the more problems that'll likely be found.
All bug reports can be collated and then fixed to produce an official public version. Whereas now, v6.1 seems to be the public beta version (but not official), and v6.11 will most likely be the bug fixed version.

And what exactly can anyone benefit from beta testing?
Maybe he wants to beta test it, well I stand by the idea. The last few versions were full with quite simple and easy to reproduce/view/fix bugs, and if current beta testers can see those then they're certanly not doing their job well

Well after reading this post by codemastr earlier, IMO he would make a good beta tester; whats so bad about that?

Oh my god... please code'master' STFU and stop demanding things like these and acting like if you were the smartest guy in the world. Many people are tired about your egocentric and useless attitude.

Who the hell are you to demand things to Khaled?, who?.

Get a life.

And i know it, my post is gonna be deleted and i'm gonna be banned but I (and many like me) have enough of this, sorry Khaled and mods.

Many people are tired about your egocentric and useless attitude.

How would you know? You've made all of three posts and only registered on the 26th August.

And i know it, my post is gonna be deleted and i'm gonna be banned but I (and many like me) have enough of this,

I doubt you'll get banned, I've seen far worse posts than this. However you are out of line telling someone where to go because he's just decided to have his say.

Generally speaking I think this place is getting very petty. It's increasingly becoming a hanging offence just to put forward an opinion these days. Everyone needs to become far more tolerant and realise that variety is the spice of life.

In one respect I actually agree with codemastr and I don't believe he's trying to make demands. I think passing mIRC to a few people who use a wide range of it's functions BEFORE release would be of great benefit to both Khaled and the users.

Speak for yourself. I find codemaster to be someone who knows what he's talking about. No complaints here

Plus, requesting and demanding are two different things.

yeah his points are always good, though sometimes he comes across a bit strong.

In addition to my post before, because I've passed the time allowable to edit, I believe that those asked to Beta-Test mIRC should not only be people who use many of mIRC's functions and/or run scripts which utilise most of mIRC's scripting power, the Beta-Testers should be people with many versions of Windows running. IE: 9X, NT, 2000, XP Home or Pro and 2003. Some bugs are specific to a particular version such as the reported .NET version bug not being future-proof which isn't really a bug as such, more of an oversight.

I was not asking to be a beta tester at all. Actually, what I had in mind was something along the lines of let forum moderators and "trusted" #mIRC channel ops be beta testers. Neither of those categories would include me. If Khaled wants me as a beta tester, he knows how to find me, there would be no need for me to ask to beta test it. My post was not meant to be self-serving, I posted it because I think it is what is best for mIRC as a whole, not because I wanted to be a beta tester.

As for the guy saying why do I have the right to "demand" an answer from Khaled, "I really would appreciate if Khaled and/or Tjerk would reply to this" how can that be interpretted as demanding? It seems both respectful and courteous to me. Perhaps where you come from that is considered demanding, but where I am from a demand is both irrational and rash, i.e. "If you don't change the beta testing system, I'm going to do my best to destroy mIRC." However, I said nothing of that sort, nor would I, I want mIRC to be better, not worse, therefore I made my suggestion for what I think will make it better. Secondly, why do I have the right to *ask* Khaled this? Well, maybe you see it differently, but to me Khaled is just a man, I don't deify him; just like I wouldn't think twice about asking you a question, I wouldn't think twice about asking him one. I see no disrespect in asking anyone a question that is valid, such as this one. Furthermore, mIRC is not free. If I pay for something, I believe I have a right to understand why the thing I paid for doesn't work correctly.

My personal belief is that if you like mIRC and you support it, you wouldn't be challenging me on why I asked this question, you'd instead join in support of me on this, since, there is no way you can conclude that better and more comprehensive beta testing can be harmful to mIRC. More testing means less bugs, and that is good for everyone. I really don't see how you or anyone else could disagree with that.

"... what I had in mind was something along the lines of let forum moderators and "trusted" #mIRC channel ops be beta testers. "

I was under the impression that it was those people who already did the beta-testing. But anyway, I like the general idea of letting more people test... and... I think I should be one of them!

and how many bugs have u found in this last version? what qualifies u to be a beta tester? granted i know its beyond me but id make a fair assumption that ppl like codemastr would make a good beta tester. this forum is filled with several knowledgable ppl who would make good beta testers .... i dont feel his request is out of bounds that the testing phase be changed. nor do i feel hes asking to be one, simply that someone who knows how to find a bug is infact testing it.

Frankly, if I were asked, today, to be a beta tester, I'd probably say no. With school, I barely have any free time except for the weekends, and I'd rather not commit myself to testing something when I know I don't have the available time to do so.

Anyway, I've noticed that no one has yet made any official response to this. Am I to believe that this is because Khaled/Tjerk do not want to listen to my suggestions or respond to my questions? If this is the case, why is it that you refuse to answer these questions? I don't see why it is something that must be shrouded in mystery, they are simple, straightforward, and legitimate questions. I'm not asking for Khaled's home phone number, I'm just asking what goes into to mIRC testing process. So, if I'm just wasting my time with this, would Khaled/Tjerk at least come and tell me that you have no plans to reveal any of this information? At least that way I won't be disappointed the next time a buggy release occurs.

codemastr, heh.

Well I assume that the silence here means Khaled refuses to disclose the requested information. All I can say (to Khaled) is don't be suprised when the problems that occurred in 6.1 happen again, and again in the new releses of mIRC. It's your program, you get the final say, but by ignoring this post I believe you made a very bad decision for mIRC.

Jeez - would you give the guy a break? It's only been a day since your first post in this thread and you're assuming you're being ignored. It's not like you've posted a bug report that can be checked in a few minutes! If someone publicly trashed unreal the way you're doing with v6.1 wouldn't you want to take the time to give a decent response rather than giving into someone's demands for a quick reply?

Again, the word "demands" appears. I have demanded nothing. Secondly, I am NOT trashing mIRC at all. A am providing suggestions for ways to improve mIRC. Trashing would be me saying "Khaled is an idiot, why would he let such a buggy release be made?" Can you show me where I said something like that? You can't, because I didn't, nor would I; that would be completely counterproducive, I want to help mIRC, not hurt it.

Anyhow, I don't see why the response should take more than 5 minutes to formulate. How does it take days to know how many people beta test mIRC? How does it take days to know how long before the release of 6.1 they were given the beta version?

In any case, it is common courtesy to at least acknowledge the post. I'm not saying Khaled should have posted the answers immediately, but he could have said something to the fact of "I'm taking what you said into consideration, I'll give more information later" just to acknowledge the fact that he hasn't simply dismissed the post entirely. And, based on the fact that every other time someone has made a post concerning the beta process Khaled has refused to comment or to implement any of the proposed changes, I feel the fact that he hasn't responded here is an indication that he will not respond. He managed to find time to respond to bug reports, why can't he find time to reply to this one? Additionally, in my follow up I specifically asked, "would you at least say whether you will answer the questions or not" to which no reply was received. Again, an indication that he will not even acknowledge this post.

So I don't feel I'm being overzealous. I feel the way mIRC's testing phase is structured is flawed. As a user of mIRC I made a suggestion that I feel will help solve the problem. I don't see how trying to ensure the fact that the idea gets heard is a bad thing.

So, you still think Khaled is planning to respond to this, even though it's now been a week since I posted it?