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My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. #192035 21/12/07 08:00 AM
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LostShadow Offline OP
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Personally there are many reasons why a regular user should get to decide 'certain' things in channels they do not run. The rationality of the op staff usually impacts their intelligence and their response to fairness

You want it both ways and you can't have it both ways. If you want an op staff where good cause is required for you to resign your status, you have to accept a negotiation where there are penalties for quitting without cause. Most ops really do want an at-will status agreement. That means they can make any demands on their founder for any reason and quit if they're not met. But it also means their founder can make any demands on them for any reason and demote them if they're not met.

You certainly can negotiate an agreement where certain reasons are not sufficient justification for being banned, but you had better expect that certain reasons are not going to be sufficient justification for quitting.

And then the channel lacks justice - justice for non-staff.

Justice is the virtue of evaluating people's conduct and character accurately and objectively and rendering to each person what he deserves, what he has earned. Justice is rationality in one's affairs involving others - adherence to reality in the sphere of interpersonal relationships.

Now, several things I probably won't cover, however logical, because of human nature.

-Op discretion.
-Temp bans.

Apparently, anything discretion is life. There's police discretion, juge discretion, etc. Not many points making Efnet #mIRC perfect when the world isn't anyways.

Temp bans, because a bot named herbie removes them, and then, channel ban incidents on the individual level seem to be forgotten easily.

And then I could sort of cut the op staff in half: ops who get pissed off easily, and ops who do not get pissed off easily. But then, a lot of other channels have that problem, as well as real life society.

Now for my complaints.

1.Pragmatism is not ethical for #mIRC.
Pragmatism is the doctrine that ops should do whatever works. The problem with this doctrine is that we cannot determine what works and what does not until we have a standard of value for comparing them. Once we have a standard of value their is no further question of what we 'should' do. Thus pragmatism is not a system of ethics because it does not tell us what to value and that is the role of ethics.

2.Banning the ident.

Like all channels, Efnet #mIRC has the same problem.

Banning the ident is like banning the nick.

Because we are in the Nick!Ident@Host format, where nick can be changed, and so can ident, it is meaningless to ban the ident, just as much as banning the nick.

The exceptions to this are when you specifically ban the nick/ident/host because it is offensive or a swear word, that way, they can "rightfully" evade by using 1 that is not offensive, etc.

Since nicks can be changed, as well as idents, it is meaningless to ban the nick, as well as the ident.

And my premise is based on the point of the ban - to prevent the person from /join'ing the channel. Not some random, social-engineering drama.

Now I don't want to hear the excuse "my mIRC by default bans the ident." That's just too lazy; I won't buy that for an excuse.

3.Are scripts allowed or not-allowed for non-staff?

I think there is several confusion going on on 1 particular rule: whether or not scripts can be run in the channel for non-staff.

Take a look at this for example.

[December 17 2007 Monday 09:47:45 AM] <03qwerty-> !country ba
[December 17 2007 Monday 09:47:46 AM] <12Hrung> ba corresponds to Bosnia and Herzegovina
[December 17 2007 Monday 09:47:46 AM] <logiclrd> qwerty-: Name for the .BA TLD is Bosnia and Herzegovina.
[December 17 2007 Monday 09:47:46 AM] <Mike`> Country code: .ba Name: Bosnia and Herzegovina Location: (43 52 N, 18 25 E) Southeastern Europe, bordering the Adriatic Sea and Croatia

So you have a +v triggering the scripts. So the 1st 1 is an op. The 3rd 1 is a mirc.com moderator. And then, don't know who thd 2nd 1 is, but the 2nd and 3rd are "regular users."

Now, there are 2 philosophies. Scripts that output to the channel, and scripts that don't output to the channel. I could have a script that shows the clones when a person joins the channel in a clone-detecting script for Efnet #mIRC. Would a no-script rule jurisdict that? Hopefully not, because we assume no one would know about it (unless you output it of course).

Which is why I find it significant to differentiate between scripts that output to the channel and scripts that don't output to the channel.

Anyone agree with me?

Because 1 philosophy I agree in when making a rule, is the ability to know when the rule is broken. And it shouldn't be "did you break the rule? Yes/no." (such as when the op wasn't there), because that's not reliable.

And then you say, "what about breaking an Efnet #mIRC outside the channel," and then I say, "that's off the subject. Because that's outside the channel jurisdiction. Channel rules have to have channel jurisdictions and it should only constitute inside the channel." For example, someone could be banned in Efnet #mIRC just for posting this topic.

4.The philosophy between channel ops and channel rules.

I see 2 philosophies when involving channel ops and channel rules.

They are.

1.Ops are someone who can enforce the rules and cannot break them.
2.Ops are someone who can enforce the rules and can break them.

I hope Efnet #mIRC is not the latter.

But it seems it is.

There was 1 incident (which I may not have the logs to back up), where, a channel op was using another nick, and said to me a porn site. A channel op instantly banned him. But then, whether instantly or a couple seconds later, the 3 bots, herbie, etc., removed the mask. Now of course, the op banned the ident, and the ident, was the channel op's real nick. Thus realizing that the op banned another op, he instantly shrieked and unbanned. Then the op rejoined either using the right nick, or /nick'd after, and opped up, and probably removing his ban. This was around a year ago.

And then of course, the op who banned the other op apologized, despite the fact that the op posted a porno link. Well, at least they know how to get along with 1 another..

Let's talk about, rationality.

We like Efnet #mIRC to be stable.

Thus, rules.

5.Modoc has a script that bans people whenever they say the f word.

Good idea, however, there are several external problems.

-If Modoc was not in the channel, then you would think someone else would ban kick users for saying the f word. But apparently, Modoc is the only op that had the script.

-Someone said the f word when Modoc was not in the channel. When Modoc joined, I reported Modoc about that situation. Did Modoc care? Apparently not.

-This goes back to my philosophy on channel ops and channel rules: ops can break them. When Karen` said the f word regarding President Bush in regards to the Terry Schiavo incident, she did not trigger Modoc's script. And when someone pasted a log of Karen` saying the f word, that user got ban kicked no doubt, and Karen` unbanned.

Personally I like this 1. Karen` gave the user the benefit of the doubt. She didn't care so much about enforcing the f word rule (or simply Modoc's script) and unbanned the user.

6.Kniht's scripts.

He ban kicks people for using nicks in all ____ with a kick message like "Please join with a more inappropriate nick," or something.

But guess what. He resigned. And when he did, that meant anyone joining the channel with a _____________ nick would no longer get automaticaly banned. What can we do about that?

Some other stuff Kniht had in his scripts which are less meaningful.

-If someone also joined the channel with a nick like Bill Gates, they would get instantly banned with a kick message.

-If someone joined using the nick Khaled, they would get banned with the no Khaled impersonation. This I like, but of course, I would want other ops to have this script too.

Why should certain channel rules be dependent on who's on the op list and who isn't? Can't they have rules for all of staff to enforce? Or maybe have none of the ops run the scripts, and let the bots run it.

Remember, we like rationality here. And we like rational staff. If we want a rational channel - then we need a channel run by rational staff. Pretty simple and pretty complicated. Pretty simple in terms of the idea - and pretty complicated in terms of who decides who is rational or not.

-Neal Conroy.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192036 21/12/07 09:42 AM
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Mentality Offline
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Quite frankly you think of IRC far too deeply. As with many IRC channels, its rules are quite flexible, and some situations call for a ban and some don't. Op discretion. Don't like it? Leave. Or be banned, as you probably were. It's as simple as that.

If I remember correctly, your script was informing users when they were unbanned. We don't want you to do that, and you were asked a number of times to stop using it. You point blank refused, because you think you have a right to do what you want, just because certain other people have gotten away with using scripts. Apart from the fact that it's none of your business what other people do, the point is this: you were asked to stop doing something, you refused, you were banned. Welcome to IRC.

Regards,


Mentality/Chris
Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Mentality] #192038 21/12/07 11:26 AM
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Basically, I'd have to agree with Mentality about this. Ops can enforce rules however they want to. Preferably, they do it fairly, but whether or not it's fair, it's up to them. Unless other ops and/or the founder decides to prevent it, of course.

That said, I've never found Efnet to be particularly welcoming. I try to avoid it for the most part. The #mIRC channel can be helpful at times and at other times you can find people acting pretty bad in there. But like I said, that's not just #mIRC, but Efnet in general... and just my own personal experiences on that network. And that isn't to say that everyone is like that. There are a lot of helpful people there. Unfortunately, there also seems to be a disproportionate number of annoying/troublemaking people there as well. And then there's the issue where most channels on Efnet require users to figure out where their rules are in order to follow them rather than actually pointing the user to the correct location either with a topic or a message or something. That causes a lot of people, especially new users who don't know to even look for rules when there isn't anything in the channel that even references them, to be banned. And then there are rules that are, imo, rather stupid rules that aren't really useful and just harm those who don't know about them and are likely to break them without intending to do anything wrong. Yes, sometimes ops will warn you and then you're ok... other times they'll ban you outright without even telling you why you were banned. What I've found is that avoiding talking except when absolutely necessary in any channel on Efnet is the safest thing to do. And that's the *only* network where I feel that way... and I know a LOT of people who also avoid that network for the same reason. That should tell people something about how it's being run, but apparently those on it don't really care that much and that's fine. It all goes back to the original thing I said... ops can do what they want in their own channel, whether it's fair or not.


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#Invision on irc.irchighway.net
It's nice to be remembered, ... [Re: LostShadow] #192041 21/12/07 04:22 PM
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... but I haven't opped in EFnet #mIRC for years. Where is this coming from?

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192042 21/12/07 04:36 PM
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You need to get laid.


Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: starbucks_mafia] #192043 21/12/07 04:42 PM
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lmao

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Mentality] #192044 21/12/07 04:44 PM
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LostShadow Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mentality
If I remember correctly, your script was informing users when they were unbanned. We don't want you to do that, and you were asked a number of times to stop using it. You point blank refused, because you think you have a right to do what you want, just because certain other people have gotten away with using scripts. Apart from the fact that it's none of your business what other people do, the point is this: you were asked to stop doing something, you refused, you were banned. Welcome to IRC.


Bans have reasons. Unbans have reasons. I value them both.

Quite simply I believe everyone has the equal priviledge of knowing when they are unbanned from a channel they are not in. If the ban is removed, then they have every equal priviledge of joining if they want to. I do not consider this a distraction because it does not output publicly to the channel.

I also believe what goes on in private (such as in notice) is outside channel jurisdiction. I was once banned because I helped a user in p.m. rather than in the channel and foolishly let the channel know. That's another thing I forgot to add.

It is true that it is pretty meaningless to let someone on the blacklist (or ChanServ akick list) know that they are unbanned. But then, those bans don't need to be removed. People ban people for reasons. I hope people unban people for reasons as well. They should both be equally important.

-Neal.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192045 21/12/07 05:04 PM
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Fail.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow] #192048 21/12/07 05:56 PM
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Hey this would make a good Festivus thread. grin

Does anybody have a pole?

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192049 21/12/07 06:01 PM
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Informing trolls that they can now return for another round is not a good idea if you want to remain in any channel for a reasonable length of time. That is enough reason to ban you, regardless of any other channel policies.

Originally Posted By: "LostShadow"
Because we are in the Nick!Ident@Host format, where nick can be changed, and so can ident, it is meaningless to ban the ident, just as much as banning the nick.

Hosts can be changed too. Perhaps we should stop setting bans altogether, then.

While it's true that idents are not particularly difficult to change on most systems, not everyone knows how to change their ident, nor is everyone inclined towards spending their time evading bans. Most channel operators will set reasonably narrow bans and then widen them as needed, which is exactly as it should be.

To follow on from that, sometimes bans need to be placed that affect a large number of users; for example bans set against botnets or ban evaders. The removal of such bans is not an invitation for the offender to rejoin, but rather to allow legitimate users to join who would otherwise have been unable. Your script is was a disservice to those people, as well as the channel in general.

Quote:
I also believe what goes on in private (such as in notice) is outside channel jurisdiction. I was once banned because I helped a user in p.m. rather than in the channel and foolishly let the channel know. That's another thing I forgot to add.

Channels, particularly help channels, have a level of responsibility to their users. Would you suggest that we did not ban users who sent $decode() worms to our visitors? Helping in private is generally not permitted to ensure that the help given is infact helpful, and not malicious. Again, this is as it should be.

To conclude: Your opinions, beliefs, complaints and criticisms are both irrelevant and largely nonsensical. Enjoy your ban, I have a feeling it will be in place for quite some time.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Collective] #192051 21/12/07 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: Collective
Hosts can be changed too. Perhaps we should stop setting bans altogether, then.


Call that slippery slope if you will?

Originally Posted By: Collective
While it's true that idents are not particularly difficult to change on most systems, not everyone knows how to change their ident, nor is everyone inclined towards spending their time evading bans. Most channel operators will set reasonably narrow bans and then widen them as needed, which is exactly as it should be.


Looks like you're talking about the difference betweel level 2 and level 4 bans. Leave level 3 bans out of it.

Originally Posted By: Collective
To follow on from that, sometimes bans need to be placed that affect a large number of users; for example bans set against botnets or ban evaders. The removal of such bans is not an invitation for the offender to rejoin, but rather to allow legitimate users to join who would otherwise have been unable. Your script is was a disservice to those people, as well as the channel in general.


You brought up another topic - bans that affect more than 1 person. I have not yet encountered that problem with Efnet #mIRC. I do have some sort of flood and repeat protection. Apparently, in past experience, every ban targetted affected 1 or 2 person. I don't think I'm capable of letting an entire botnet know they're unbanned, especially since the channel becomes well protected during mass joins.

Originally Posted By: Collective
Channels, particularly help channels, have a level of responsibility to their users. Would you suggest that we did not ban users who sent $decode() worms to our visitors?


No.

Originally Posted By: Collective
Helping in private is generally not permitted to ensure that the help given is infact helpful, and not malicious. Again, this is as it should be.


That's a very interesting reason you provided since it takes what bad things can happen as a result of why it is. I can come up with other equally excuses, such that I have pm'd other users for help and they did not try to backdoor me or any sort - should I report to the ops that someone is responding to me in pm? Althought what I meant is that I do the /whois follow and then assist them (particularly for cases where they need help with a bot and script for their channel). The best way I found to help someone with a channel bot or channel script is to join their channel.

-Neal.

Originally Posted By: Collective
To conclude: Your opinions, beliefs, complaints and criticisms are both irrelevant and largely nonsensical. Enjoy your ban, I have a feeling it will be in place for quite some time.


Anyways, I certainly can be up for a conversation of what can happen, althought I particularly find more importance on what does happen and what has happened.

That's kind of like, he can be an idiot, so he should be banned. But I differentiate between what happens and what possibilities can happen, despite maybe being interested of what can happen in theory. But I consider them to be separate things.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192052 21/12/07 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: LostShadow

Bans have reasons. Unbans have reasons. I value them both.

Quite simply I believe everyone has the equal priviledge of knowing when they are unbanned from a channel they are not in. If the ban is removed, then they have every equal priviledge of joining if they want to. I do not consider this a distraction because it does not output publicly to the channel.

I also believe what goes on in private (such as in notice) is outside channel jurisdiction. I was once banned because I helped a user in p.m. rather than in the channel and foolishly let the channel know. That's another thing I forgot to add.

It is true that it is pretty meaningless to let someone on the blacklist (or ChanServ akick list) know that they are unbanned. But then, those bans don't need to be removed. People ban people for reasons. I hope people unban people for reasons as well. They should both be equally important.

-Neal.


Hmm, this is the reason why people need a "shitlist" or perm ban people from a channel, if i get banned from a channel, then i take the hint and ether change the way i act, or i wont join that channel again, and a ban is set to stop people to join, but since the banlist only can store xx amount of bans you need to unban, if people did what they should do on irc "chat with others", then i don't think a ban would be placed so often, but more and more spammers and stupid kiddies that do wrong stuff on the channel force the op's on the channel to place a ban. i just love this tip of the way i found on a server i was on befor, and i belive the one that wrote it have a point:

I think that IRC would be a much nicer place if people would masturbate BEFORE joining.


if ($me != tired) { return } | else { echo -a Get a pot of coffee now $+($me,.) }
Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta] #192053 21/12/07 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: sparta

I think that IRC would be a much nicer place if people would masturbate BEFORE joining.


That changed my IRC demeanor, now I can't keep my hands off myself. In fact.....

whistle

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192054 21/12/07 07:40 PM
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Unbans may well have reasons, but why are you sticking your nose in? Sometimes banning a troll and auto-unbanning after a couple of hours works, the troll forgets about the ban and moves on to some other channel or /quits until another day. It's not an invitation to return. And even if it was, what has it got to do with you? You have nothing to do with #mIRC's running. At all. Whether you think you have or not. We have a lot of perm bans set in our channel bot, but we don't want them to be sticky in order to not fill up the ban list. Again, what's it got to do with you?

What a bizarre thread.


Mentality/Chris
Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Mentality] #192055 21/12/07 07:50 PM
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I'm Santa Claus - and remember, Santa Claus will always let you know when you're unbanned. Merry Christmas. Nothing personal - my script is for all channels on all networks.

And since I'm not staff - I give users the benefit of the doubt.

Benefit of the doubt: they're unbanned, let them know.
None: nothing.
Disadvantage of the doubt: n/a, or attempt/beg/request the ban to be longer if lifted.

My general service to the world.

Ho ho ho.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192056 21/12/07 08:04 PM
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It's unbelievable how bull-headed some people can be.

It's a simple concept, really. You can do what you want (notify of unbans), and they can do what they want (boot your hard-headed ass out of their channel).

Welcome to IRC grin



I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person. wink
Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow] #192058 21/12/07 08:21 PM
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My reply:

1. You refused to do what you were told. You continue to refuse what you were told.

If you're fighting an op, that's reason enough for your removal from the channel. IRC isn't about fairness, it's about whether or not an op can stand you in their channel. If you're pissing an op off, you will be removed. And if you are doing it intentionally, you completely deserve it.

End of story.


- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
- "Life is a pointer to an integer without a cast"
Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: argv0] #192059 21/12/07 08:24 PM
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Now you're downgrading a help channel / official channel to the level of any other typical channel on IRC.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow] #192060 21/12/07 08:29 PM
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No, I'm upgrading this to the fact that you're intentionally refusing to follow the stated rules and etiquette of standard IRC channels. Try your script on any other "official channel" and see how long you last.

It should also be noted that you chose to have this discussion in a public forum rather than first approaching an op privately on this issue, which only proves that you're complaining for the sake of it, making this conversation the most pointless waste of time. Complain away.

mIRC #efnet is not "official", by the way, we're merely enthusiasts helping out of our own good will. Ho ho ho.





- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
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Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: argv0] #192062 21/12/07 08:34 PM
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Not only have you been told the reason for your ban and ignored our request, you also have ban-evaded in the past, and seem to have a war-dialler, so whenever the ban is removed, you re-join immediately.

You can be pretty much assured, you will NEVER be allowed back in the channel as long as this sort of behaviour continues.

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