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Re: future plans for mIRC #133224 24/10/05 06:06 PM
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Riamus2 Offline
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mIRC isn't a programming language, or meant to be. For a programming language, there are various good ones out there that can be used to write standalone programs and/or DLLs that are meant to work with mIRC's scripting. I really don't see any need to make mIRC a programming language.

Oh well... I guess I'll bow out on this. No point in going back and forth over it.


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Re: future plans for mIRC #133225 24/10/05 06:13 PM
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hixxy Offline
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I'm well aware that it's not a programming language, or meant to be.
By the way, a programming language does not have to be able to create standalone applications (look at the amount of interpreted languages available).
You still haven't given a reason as to why you would mind if it did become one, so, hypothetically:
it is. So what?

Re: future plans for mIRC #133226 24/10/05 06:14 PM
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To no one in particular (sorry Riamus2 .. you were the last poster when I started this):

In my opinion (which probably don't count for much anyway), the more you add to mirc, the larger the download becomes, and, personally, I won't download a new version that suddenly becomes 40mb (or even 20mb) just to satisfy everyones desires for a "new and improved" or "full featured" mirc.
[/rant]


I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person. wink
Re: future plans for mIRC #133227 24/10/05 06:18 PM
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No feature suggestion that I've seen is going to make mIRC's size increase by 1000% but even if it did, 20mb is tiny in todays standards.

Re: future plans for mIRC #133228 24/10/05 06:22 PM
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no SINGLE suggestion, maybe ..

Quote:
20mb is tiny in todays standards


Maybe to someone that has broadband available, but to someone on a dial-up connection it's not worth the wait to update something that works as it was designed (text chat) in the first place.

Last edited by CtrlAltDel; 24/10/05 06:23 PM.

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Re: future plans for mIRC #133229 24/10/05 06:42 PM
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Riamus2 Offline
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Bah... I never can avoid responding when asked to respond. crazy

Heh... anyhow...

1) I know a programming language does not require the ability to make a standalone program. As I said, "and/or"... The point if you read a bit more closely what I said, is that there are already programming languages out there that will make standalone programs (no need for mIRC to do so) and there are already programming languages out there that can make DLLs to be used within mIRC to add all the extra features one could want (again, no need for mIRC to be able to do everything a DLL can do).

2) Why not make it a programming language? For it to become a full programming language, it really would need a LOT of work -- work that could be spent improving/updating/fixing other things. Also, there is no need (see above). And, if someone really wants to program, rather than script addons/etc to make mIRC/IRC better, then they are better off using a real programming language, anyhow. And, if they don't know how, then learn. If someone can learn mIRC, they can learn C++/VB as well. Those are a bit more complicated, but not so much as to make it too difficult to learn... especially with a programming/scripting background (even if that's only from using mIRC scripting). mIRC scripting is to improve mIRC/IRC. It can do a LOT more, and that's ok. But, that's not really what it is for.

And, I agree with CtrlAltDel... adding a lot of additional "IM" features just bloats mIRC. DLLs work just fine for adding such features. And, for those who absolutely have to have those features in IRC and can't be bothered to use DLLs, there are clients out that have those features. They're not as popular, but they have the features.

* Riamus tries to disappear again on this and all similar topics about "IM" features.


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Re: future plans for mIRC #133230 24/10/05 07:02 PM
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FiberOPtics Offline
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Quote:
Why not make it a programming language? For it to become a full programming language, it really would need a LOT of work -- work that could be spent improving/updating/fixing other things.


What do you care if it would take much work?

1. You said you are fine with the way mIRC is, so why does it ever need to update for you?

2. You said you are fine with waiting a long time, so what does it matter if it'll be a lot of work?

Btw I'm not debating whether mIRC should or should not become a programming language, we can keep that for another time. I just thought it was somewhat strange you would use those arguments, when just a few posts earlier you said the reverse.

3.
Quote:
And, I agree with CtrlAltDel... adding a lot of additional "IM" features just bloats mIRC.


Who is talking about adding IM features to mIRC???

Can anyone please show me where exactly in this thread did we ever start talking about adding IM features to mIRC?!? No one in this entire thread is talking about adding IM features, so I don't understand how that point is relevant in regards to our discussion that we have been having. I'm not asking for webcam support here people, I'm asking for new scripting features.

@Ctrlaltdel: The current mirc.exe is 1.4 mb, and look at what a wide range of features there is for scripting. Do you honestly believe that for example adding secure socket support is going to bloat the mirc.exe? I think we are starting to talk about different things here. I have always been talking about _scripting_ features, not webcam/smiley whatever features.


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Re: future plans for mIRC #133231 24/10/05 07:14 PM
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Riamus2 Offline
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Hm... I seem to have gotten my topics crossed (this and the one asking for webcam). Oops. blush


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Re: future plans for mIRC #133232 24/10/05 10:08 PM
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Quote:
If someone can learn mIRC, they can learn C++/VB as well.


That's a very popular misconception. It's not really worth comparing mIRC to any programming language, especially ones with as many features as those you mentioned (things mIRC doesn't have: classes, types/structs, constants, data types, arrays and enumerations).

Re: future plans for mIRC #133233 24/10/05 10:57 PM
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It is probably fair to say in Riamus2's defense because he is taking quite a beating here, that learning mIRC scripting will make things easier when learning another language.

There are basic concepts across all programming languages such as loops and validation that if learned in mIRC might make things a little easier when moving over.

Note that I'm saying it helps with the concepts in programming, not the syntaxes or methods that can vary across the many languages out there.

Last edited by dood; 24/10/05 10:59 PM.
Re: future plans for mIRC #133234 25/10/05 03:14 AM
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I believe my exact comment was " just to satisfy everyones desires for a "new and improved" or "full featured" mirc. "
I never said "exclusive to this thread" (or anything similar). My comment was meant to express my views and encompass all "requests" (some sounding more like demands) to "upgrade" or "modernize" mIRC, including (but not confined to) IM features that so many seem to think we need. If Khaled was to listen to everyone and add all of this "stuff" mIRC could very well approach 20mb or more. Don't get me wrong, some of the script editor ideas appeal to me (like syntax highlighting) ... but that's another thread also.
Personally, I'm willing to wait for Khaled to release his next version at his convenience, and find it rather humourous that people "demand" updates in a specified time period all the time (some of the comments are actually laughable).


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Re: future plans for mIRC #133235 25/10/05 03:22 AM
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You are the only one that has ever talked about "new and improved" or "full featured". Where does all of this suddenly come from? Did you also mistake this thread for the webcam one?

You are exagerating the issue, and I don't even see what it has to do with this thread. What is it always with the "bloated" argument. What is that based on? How on earth would you know how big mIRC.exe would become, or how much "slower" it would run if certain features were added. Please tell me, what is it based on? Don't say MSN. How could you know that webcam support (to give an example) is the reason MSN is big or runs slow? And why would you assume the feature would be implemented in the exact same way as it is in other clients which you seem to base your opinion on? (Note I'm not asking for webcam support in any way here or anything, I'm using it merely as an example to get my point accross, and because it is often refered to as something that would make mIRC "bloated")

Yes you mention that you mean if literally _everyone_ 's feature suggestion is implemented, but where exactly in this discussion does this argument fit in? Who's asking for that? I for one am definitely not asking for that. The things I did mention that I would love to see, were always backed up with an argument explaining why they would be good features, and even went as far as to give 2 practical examples illustrating this. I don't think anyone here is asking for every single request to be added in, therefore I wonder what exactly the purpose of that argument is. It seems to be "thrown" in the discussion just for the heck of it.

Where does this 20mb measure come from? Could you already predict how many bytes of code Khaled will be needing to write, or how many non native api's he would be depending on, or how many extra libraries he would be linking to because of new features?

Btw, I find the size argument to be the least significant of them all. I won't lose my sleep (and I cant imagine anyone either) if mIRC would turn out to be 5mb at some point, which would, looking at what is already available in mIRC, mean that there is atleast twice as many features as there are currently (this is purely a guess as I can't measure how much it would increase, I'm simply looking at how big it is right now and taking into account what it already provides, which is an aweful lot). If you are truely worried about a couple of megabytes, then ok, I think it is indeed troublesome then for you if mIRC were to ever grow to be as big. I just reckon the ratio of people who don't mind the size, compared against those who do mind, would be very big.

And who exactly has been "demanding" features? It's not wrong to say what you want, or would like to see added. That's not demanding anything. The thread starter only asked for what the future plans were regarding mIRC. I don't see anyone demanding new features here, just some people includying myself stating what they would like/love to see, and explaining their reasons behind it. You may have been faced with feature suggestions in the past that seemed demanding, though deal with it in those threads then, not here, as this has not yet been the case in this particular thread.

Disclaimer: If my posts seem as if they are flaming towards people, rest assured they are not intended that way. Unfortunately, that is one of the downsides of text based communication, and how someone interprets your post can vary severly, whereas in oral communication this is less likely to happen.


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Re: future plans for mIRC #133236 25/10/05 04:46 AM
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I seriously have to agree with pretty much every point FiberOPtics has made.

I mean, not all too long ago, I was attempting to parse a website, however they had a rather large table on a single line, and it did take me a while to figure out that was the problem, at first I thought maybe my code was goofed up somewhere, and then I attempted to $regex() just the end of the line/table, only to realise it got cut off.

Unfortunately, I had to do this in perl (I'm still pretty new to perl, mind you), because I just couldn't see an easy way around parsing through the webpage, without having to write it to a file, and then go through the file with $read, or binvars (still not too good with binvars either) so this is pretty unacceptable.

My first post in this thread was more of a joke, but, I don't mind waiting for new features (provided that wait doesn't start extending well over years), I'll still use mIRC in order to talk to friends, but it'd be absolutely great if more features (scripting or not) were added.

I'm on 56k as well, and to be honest, if mIRC got "bloated" up to 100MB, I'd still download it. Of course, as FiberOPtics pointed out, that'd be a hell of a lot more features than what mIRC currently offers.

Also, some people fail to recognize some things. In regards to "growing tired of waiting for updates," you have to figure, everything is going to get "old" sooner or later. Ever play a video game for a month/year/2years, and then decide it's a waste of time? Same thing applies to programs. Most people like to "move on" so that they don't feel like they are wasting their time. Updates do help *delay* this process.

I've been using mIRC for roughly 5 years now, I'll continue to use it for quite a while, as I'm one of the stubbourn people who don't like to move on. I'll still use it for scripting projects depending on what I need done, and I'll most certainly still use it to stay in touch with friends.

Re: future plans for mIRC #133237 25/10/05 12:57 PM
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Riamus2 Offline
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Quote:
It is probably fair to say in Riamus2's defense because he is taking quite a beating here, that learning mIRC scripting will make things easier when learning another language.

There are basic concepts across all programming languages such as loops and validation that if learned in mIRC might make things a little easier when moving over.

Note that I'm saying it helps with the concepts in programming, not the syntaxes or methods that can vary across the many languages out there.


Exactly. I originally learned programming in Apple BASIC. I progressed through BASIC, GW-BASIC, Pascal, Orca/C, C++, ASM (minimally), and eventually picked up mIRC scripting. I know the differences between them. I also know the similarities between them. And, I maintain that if you can learn one language (even if it's just a scripting language), you can learn any other language. All languages I've seen have a lot to do with math and logic. If someone has the ability to deal with those things, they can learn any language. If they aren't good at those two things, then they probably can still learn, but it will be considerably more difficult. Note that there are other things involved, but those 2 are pretty core to any programming language. There may be some scripting languages that aren't mathematical/logical, but I doubt very many are that way.


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Re: future plans for mIRC #133238 26/10/05 01:27 AM
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WOW. have i been awayfrom here for A LONG time. as ive been scrolling reading this information in this thread i pondered the thought has mIRC scripting taught me or helped me in scripting, as was mentioned here. the answer is un equivically YES. i have since moved on from my chatting and mirc scripting days but i do drop in here from time to time, as it helps clear my head when im tryin to pnder new elements in other programming areas, i have since released several stand alone programs using a great deal of my mirc scripting knowledge. al be it they were written in C++ and VB.net.
The arguement here about mirc becoming or ever being a scripting language is really irrelevent at this point as i know several ppl like myself who started here. As for the main question of this topic, future plans for mIRC, well khaled himself only knows that. i will give that man a hands down congratulation on a job well done if he stopped coding mIRC and said hell with it right now, look at the years of work hes put into it for a mear 20 bucks per user registration fee lifetime!!! If you think hes getting rich doing it your crazy, especially the hours and hours of time it takes to perfect one single function sometimes. The rants should end about when and where and what new stuff is he gonna give me cause damn, look what mIRC has already given us all. its in no short order given me a career and a decent job.


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Re: future plans for mIRC #133239 26/10/05 02:06 AM
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*general reply to the last 5 or so posts*

Of course, it's fair to say that learning a script language like mIRC's helps towards learning a programming language, but a person being able to learn a scripting language does not guarantee they could also learn a programming language. It's like comparing driving a moped to driving a jumbo jet.

Re: future plans for mIRC #133240 26/10/05 01:41 PM
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I wouldn't say there is THAT big of a difference. laugh

Perhaps the difference between riding a bicycle and driving a motorcycle. You may not have the "object" programming knowledge from mIRC scripting, but you already know how loops work, how variables work (to a point), how to handle incoming and outgoing data, etc. The syntax will be different, and things will be more complex, but I still say that if you can use mIRC scripting or any other scripting that is programming-based (not something like HTML, which I suppose *could* be considered scripting or programming), then you can learn any programming language if you try.

Back when I learned Pascal and Orca/C and C++, my knowledge from programming in BASIC was very helpful in understanding how the other programming languages worked. I knew what I wanted when I started, because I knew how to do it in BASIC. So, I just needed to find/learn the correct syntax to accomplish it in the other languages. It wasn't that big of a step. Of course, then you do need to start learning the more advanced parts of the other languages that don't directly follow the "lower" language. But, once you are that far, you can accomplish the rest as well.


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