Forums General Discussion File sharring on IRC

If guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.

If file sharring is wrong why does the IRC protocols support it?

Why does mIRC include a native server as well as a way to send and recieve files.

If files are outlawed only outlaws will have files.

It really should be a felony to share Defranko Family, Tony Orlando and Dawn, and the Osmonds.

The guy that invented smiley faces should have been arrested and executed. There is no justice.

Actually, the IRC Protocol does not support DCC.
mIRC only uses IRC to initiate the DCC between
the two clients. You can DCC without being
connected to IRC at all by specifying an IP address
instead of a nick /help /dccserver

"If file sharring is wrong why does the IRC protocols support it?"

It doesn't, mIRC does. It is meant for exchanging pictures or wav files etc - for example, at Christmas a friend sent me pics of their christmas tree and house lights etc, and a few days ago another friend sent me a .wav file of her daughter giggling (so sweet!). Unfortunately, like many things related to IRC/mIRC it is abused. Just look how people acted when the DCC exploit was discovered *rolls eyes*

"Why does mIRC include a native server as well as a way to send and recieve files."

By "native server" I assume you mean a server which is there primarily for file trading...personally, I don't know, Krejt deals with the server list and he makes the decisions as to what goes in there. Perhaps he's not aware of it, you can email him at Krejt@ (mirc dot com). On the other hand, perhaps the server does also support chatting and isn't 100% only there for file trading, in which case it's not a problem...can't not include a server just because they allow file sharing, many servers/networks do.

As for mIRC having an Fserve feature, I believe that is still there due to the fact that there are people who use it honestly. And anyway, even removing it would be pointless. I don't even know if fserve scripts that are so widely used even use that feature in mIRC. As you can see from Khaled's FAQ:

"IRC is about communication. Both chat and file-sharing are a normal part of communication, and always have been. IRC has been around since 1988, long before the mass file-sharing systems that we see today came into existence.

Although mIRC has a file-server, it is simple and crude, and was designed years ago for basic personal use, to allow individuals to share files with friends, family, and colleagues, and is nothing like the sophisticated and dedicated file-sharing systems in existence today, which are specifically designed to facilitate the sharing of files on a mass scale."

"If files are outlawed only outlaws will have files."

Yep - which is why Khaled doesn't like the way mIRC is often used as a file sharing program, and also why us on these mIRC message boards do not help with illegal file trading, as you can see from this post.

"It really should be a felony to share Defranko Family, Tony Orlando and Dawn, and the Osmonds.

It is - just not in the sense I think you mean it *G*

"The guy that invented smiley faces should have been arrested and executed. There is no justice."

Aww, come on, he's not all that bad

Happy chatting!

Regards,

Because it looks nicer !

Well I'll ignore the part about IRC supporting filesharing since many people have already tackled that point, but I will just say that filesharing is not wrong. The sharing of copyrighted material is illegal in many countries, but that's not the same as filesharing. Granted many idiots use filesharing solely for that purpose but that doesn't mean it's the only one. Another point to make is that many IRC chatters (myself included) do consider using IRC for filesharing to be wrong, in the sense that not only is it a poor substitute for a real filesharing protocol and network but it also often greatly irritates chatters by causing many IRC-illiterate people to come on IRC and related forums such as this one and ask questions about filesharing without even realising IRC's true intended purpose.

It really should be a felony to share Defranko Family, Tony Orlando and Dawn, and the Osmonds.

It already is a felony, it just depends on how much illegal software you are shifting and how often. The big difference between a misdemeanour and a felony is the intensity of an offence rather than the actual offence itself.

This of course depends on the country, as Starbucks pointed out. In some countries you can share any file with anyone subject only to availability. Those countries whose laws forbid breach of copyright would treat someone sending a few dodgy MPEGs alot more lightly than someone with banks of computers and VCRs and running a distribution network.

general reply: if i buy a cd and put it on my pc, if i want to share it then i will, after all i payed for it so i can do what i want with it.

Well you're correct up to that sharing part.
It's not illegal to rip it and have it on your pc yet,
it is illegal to share it with others.

then the law can **** off.

Hear! Hear!

there are too many people sharing on the web for anybody to ever even come close to stopping it i just heard that the kazaalite website was shut down but ppl will find another way so why bother? it is a losing battle

so are most things .

That's not really the attitude anyone needs. The law is not going to go anywhere, and whilst you're alive, you're required to abide by it, and I'm afraid to say, it's whether you like it or not.

But oh well, people won't change their attitudes, which is of course half the problem..if not THE problem.

Regards,

i dont download files myself, but im just saying: if i pay £15 for a cd, why can't i share it with friends?
my money, my cd, my choice.
but as usual the law is stupid.

Because all of your friends should also be paying 15 quid for that CD - if it were just your friends, it wouldn't matter, but when it's a culmination of people doing exactly the same thing you have people losing millions - people can't make a profit, and that's business for you. The companies release the CD's with copyright notices and the law forces people to abide by it...so if you think copyright law is stupid then blame the businesses for trying to make as much profit as possible, not the law.

If you had the ability/chance to make millions rather than hundreds of thousands, what would you choose?

Regards,

Personally, I feel if the music industry wouldn't be so greedy to make store increase to $15 (And sometimes $17) for a cd, then there wouldn't be half as much pirating. I can only speculate, but it most likely costs the record industry (at MOST) a quarter (thats $0.25) per cd. A lil markup, some money for the author, and you're at $15?

Maybe if they started charging reasonable fares, people would actually purchase full cds. Besides, the off chance a person wants a whole cd is slim. Most of my friends buy a cd for indiviual tracks (maybe even 2).

Perhaps...although looking at currency conversion, $15 is incredibly cheap. CD's in England are around 15 pounds each, which is around $27..but anyway, the point is it is not up for people to decide how the companies set their prices and whether or not you agree with those prices. You can write and complain, form a pressure group, but you cannot simply say "Hey, I'm going to break the law because I don't like your prices!"

If people ARE going to do that, then they need to apply it to the rest of their activities too. Meaning if they don't like the rising prices of cigarettes, they can grow their own tobacco plants and make them themselves. If bread became expensive, bake their own bread. Of course, they wouldn't do that, they'd be willing to pay more for it - but they won't with CD's, and somehow that is acceptable.

*shrugs* just the way I see it.

Regards,

Well yeah because you can't download
a cigarette or a loaf of bread for free.

Precisely, which is exactly why the ability should be prevented.

Regards,

Prevent all you want .. it's not going to stop.

I'm aware of that, nevertheless, I won't be a part of contributing to it, which is why I get a little ratty when people start having a go at me about lecturing others using mIRC for file trading as if I'm somehow in the wrong.

Anyway, that's my opinion on this thread summed up.

Happy chatting!

Regards,

You are in the wrong, mIRC is whatever the user
makes of it .. be it chatting, serving files, an
alarm clock, reminder, calculator, whatever .. or
all of the above. Not only just what uses you
find to be acceptable for it.

Nope...Khaled has already voiced his dislike for people using mIRC as a file sharing program, and so as the author doesn't like it, it's not right. Furthermore, IRC does mean Internet Relay Chat and mIRC is a chat program, which is not a subjective statement, it's fact.

Edit: Also, if your last post was true, networks would not be banning the action and this Forum would be helping with it, rather than not.

Regards,

just because khaled doesn't like it also doesn't mean it's wrong, DCC is there, people WILL use it.

I couldn't care less what Khaled likes or dislikes,
if he's going to develop and release this product
with all these capabilities that are clearly for uses
beyond chatting, then he has to expect it to be
used for reasons beyond chatting.

Just because something IS there doesn't mean using it for an illegal action makes it anymore ok. Viruses are there to be spread, it doesn't mean it's ok for people to do so.

DCC was put there (as Khaled has also said) for trading pictures or wav files etc, not for the illegal way in which people use it nowadays.

People always abuse things and simply couldn't care less about how others feel about it.

Regards,

"People always abuse things and simply couldn't care less about how others feel about it."

You are clearly one of those people

Regards,

that's like saying, "here's a cigarette and a lighter, but don't smoke it... put it in a frame on your wall"

Not really...the whole purpose of a cigarette is to smoke it. The purpose of mIRC is not to mass file trade (nor is it advised to put in a frame on your wall!)

Regards,

"here's DCC, dont send mp3's, only send pictures of yourself!"

No, I'm saying that it doesn't matter if he likes
or dislikes how people are using mIRC. If he
dislikes how people are using DCC, then he
should remove it .. but also be prepared for
for the popularity of mIRC to take a nosedive
and another client will take its place. Many
would just script around it using sockets &
custom windows and $findfile and blah blah
blah, all of which have nothing to do with chatting.

*runs around in a circle really fast*

Sending pictures (etc) is what it is meant for - the fact that people DO mass file trade with it is undeniable, the fact that using it for that is abusive is equally undeniable and that is what I am saying. It's abused. People don't care that they abuse it. Instead of blaming abusive people, others expect the innocent to suffer from their actions and Khaled to remove the feature...heh.

Regards,

"others expect the innocent to suffer from their actions and Khaled to remove the feature...heh."

Regards,

... or, he could just do nothing at all, for it
is not his problem, no more than it would
be General Motors problem that people use
their cars for illegal purposes.

I'm sure that's what he fully intends to do until such time as something practical can be implemented to prevent it...which is likely to be never really.

Nevertheless, that's got nothing to do with it, the point is the DCC feature is abused every time it is used as part of mass file trading, plus it's illegal, plus it contributes to the spreading of viruses. I do not and will not contribute to something like that, and I'm glad these Forums don't (except when someone insists upon going against the guidelines clearly set out).

Anyway, I think I've repeated myself enough now hehe - thanks for not resorting to throwing cuss words at me this time *G*

Happy chatting!

Regards,

but general motors does not help criminals who want to build in bombs in their cars either :-]

Nobody is asking you to contribute anything,
in fact, I'm sure most get tired of your hot
air and wish you would just shut up.

Ah, shame you couldn't last the whole thread

Regards,

This is true .. but do you see them taking steps
to ensure that people don't use their products for
illegal purposes ? No. That's not their problem.
That's a problem for the law to solve. Their
job is to make sure the criminal thinks of purchasing
their product again after their car is destroyed by
the illegal act they just perpetrated.

wrong again... it's meant for sending and receiving files.

Oh .. are you going to go tell the teacher because I
said most people probably wish you would just shut up?
What a laugh you are lol

Okies, let's be pedantic then :P

It's not for mass file trading or trading of illegal files.

As you can see from Khaled's FAQ:

"I'm not happy with the fact that some people use mIRC in a negative way, however mIRC is used by many people, there will always be a some people who use it in ways with which I don't agree."

and

"Although mIRC has a file-server, it is simple and crude, and was designed years ago for basic personal use, to allow individuals to share files with friends, family, and colleagues, and is nothing like the sophisticated and dedicated file-sharing systems in existence today, which are specifically designed to facilitate the sharing of files on a mass scale."

Regards,

you can turn MS word into a file sharing program if you wanted to, does MS do anything against that ? no... why? because you can't. if people want to convert a program into a mass sharing network they will always be able to! there is no stopping them. but the question is if you should encourage people into using a program for illigal purposes...

general motors does not hand out a blue print on where to install the bomb best now do they?

though they can't do anything against it they don't help either. something may be possible, but that does not make it less illigal!

neither the forum users as khaled should help you or anyone else use mIRC for illigal purposes

Do me a favor .. show me one place on this thread
where someone was encouraging someone else
to do anything illegal with mIRC. Show me one place
on this thread where someone was asking someone
else for help in doing anything illegal with mIRC.
Why don't you start from the first thread and read
and then offer an opinion or comment that's a bit
more educated.

I assume that should have read 'which is illegal'. Many have drawn conclusions that 'mass file trading' equals 'illegal file trading', nobody denys it is used for that (and it would even be safe to say the majority of mass file trading IS illegal file trading), but the difference still remains, valid uses and legitimate users still remain.


And you really believe that helping 'legitimate' users hasn't ever helped illegal file sharing? It's meant to be about morals, but in the case of this webboard it seems more about legal accountability to me. Throw a disclaimer down someones throat then point them on their way to one of the sticky posts.

this whole thread is about mass file sharing or illigal file sharing

both are illigal

and there might not be a cry for help in this thread but look at the other sections of the board... it's swarming with them!

I didn't say the thread had nothing to do
with file trading .. I said noone here has
encouraged anyone else to do anything.

And I'll help anyone I want, with whatever
they need help if I can, illegal or not .. but that
is not what this thread was about at all. It
was about a bunch of people with opinions
and one guy saying everyone else is wrong.

and where does it say in my post that it is THIS thread that people were encouraged to do it ? ;-]

Yes, valid uses and legitimate users still do exist, which is why I don't think it should be removed. Like you say, 99% of the time mass file trading IS illegal file trading, so I think we can let that one slip?

Whilst I cannot speak for others, I myself almost ALWAYS point out the morals of how mIRC/IRC being used for mass file trading when it is a CHAT program is wrong. You make referrals out to be some sort of bad thing...the very reason sticky posts exist is because they answer questions which are answered over and over again - and also, the fact that they are posted by Moderators lets the user know what the helper is telling them is true. So when I say to someone "We do not help with illegal file trading on these Forums" I can back that up with this post posted by Karen. The legalities of the issue are also mentioned simply to reinforce the fact that mass (sorry, illegal) file trading is not a good thing.

Regards,

1: it's illegal
2: mass file sharing isnt illegal if i decided to DCC 1000 hi!.txt's.

... not to mention that there is music that is
perfectly legal to download/share.

mp3 does not always mean copyrighted music

ok, so these are also wrong?:

• 
  anything involving /splay.
  themes.
  anything involving sockets.
  anything involving COM.
  anything involving /f*.
  anything involving /write/$read.
  anything involving $decode.
  anything involving /echo.
  The list goes on....

none of these have anything to do with chatting.

I've given up posting here now, both you and EVH have resorted to being pedantic about the language people use, how they spell things and pick up on every detail of what they say just so you can go on arguing. You know exactly what I have been getting at, and now you can't come up with a satisfactory retort, you've resorted to silly arguments like "/splay is bad then?" and "not all mp3s are illegal" and "it's not illegal if I send 1000 hi!.txt files"

*rolls eyes*

I'm tired and irritable, so sorry for the lack of maturity in certain posts, I hope to rectify some of that by ending my part in this tirade.

Happy chatting!

Regards,

i'm just saying, as soon as there's the slightest hint that someone wants help with DCC you normally say "i hope it isnt illegal blah blah... rant rant.."

-edit: if you don't help them, somebody else will.

It was hard not to.

some people have principals... ;-]
let people who do not care what you use mIRC for help them.

I myself will not help people with that, and neither should anyone on this forum because it's in the rules that you shouldn't. easy as that.

also for me this discussion is over. I totally agree with Mentality :-]

And god bless you for it .. for yours is a valuable
opinion .. as are the opinions of Mentality & everyone
else that contributed to the thread.

Also keep in mind that it is just your opinion.

* tidy trax pictures mentality stood in london preaching about shoplifting.

Preaching to people about shoplifting before
they even leave the store because it's possible
that they might shoplift and are capable of doing
so.

i really dont understand why your even in this heated debate, arnt u the same person that said a couple months ago they were leaving?, and really if u cant understand normal thinking there is a perfect acronym for u to learn <deleted by moderator> yup you guessed it, my opinion of both u and EVH for not being able to grasp the simplisc idea of following rules, Have a nice day because thats all im gonna say on this thread about the both of your silly tirade about something that is so simple to understand that most 10 yr olds get it.

Yet another person shooting their mouth off
that doesn't have a clue because they skipped
through the first 3/4 of the thread.

General Reply: Filesharing is a topic which always leads to heated debate. That doesnt excuse rudeness. Expect that not everyone is going to share your opinion on this or any subject, and respect their right to voice their opinion just as you are allowed to express yours. The policy here is that we do not help with illegal filesharing and strongly encourage ppl to not download anything from strangers. Part of helping is to educate ppl. Warning them about the dangers of accepting files from strangers or clicking on every url they see is part of that. I am amazed that some ppl object to a politely given warning about those dangers.

It was said "And you really believe that helping 'legitimate' users hasn't ever helped illegal file sharing? It's meant to be about morals, but in the case of this webboard it seems more about legal accountability to me. Throw a disclaimer down someones throat then point them on their way to one of the sticky posts. "
I doubt anyone believes that. Naturally some ppl we have helped with dcc probs at some time or another may use it to share files that are illegal to share or accept a file from a stranger. And of course the way ppl word their question makes us walk a fine line. Networks and providers who limit or disallow filesharing dont generally limit that restriction to "copyrighted files", but to "mass" sharing. Mass filesharing involves more issues than breaking the law, and we took all those issues into consideration in setting the policy to not help with it. Legal accountability is not the only factor. Referring ppl to sticky threads on not helping with this, or tips to resolve dcc probs, or to info on www.mirc.com helps to educate them. Many users dont have a clue about the dangers. While it may not be our duty to inform them, it certainly is a moral responsibility. Would you suggest ignoring their posts totally? Posting a simple "nope, we wont help you"? Far better imo to explain why, and what better time than when dcc is what they are asking about.

For anyone with the opinion that they will help anyone they want with whatever they want, illegal or not, thats certainly your right... elsewhere. Here we expect you to respect and abide by our policies. If someone does not wish to help educate ppl about something, such as the dangers of rampant url clicking and downloading from strangers, fine. You dont have to, but flaming those who do want to take the time to explain is absurd.

Judging by some of the recent posts, this endless loop is going downhill fast. Please post with common sense and courtesy. Nonsense and insults dont accomplish anything.

Seems my point was misintepreted and validated at the same time.



Educate them on what exactly? How to resolve the issues stopping them from doing the activities you apparantly don't help with? Kind of cancels out the whole moral standpoint thing doesn't it. What does that leave behind?

1: i did leave.
2: i can think normally.
3: i know i'm a <deleted by moderator>, don't like it? you know what to do
4: i can follow rules if i want to, rules are made to be broken.
5: like i said, i don't trade files, but if i wanted to, i wouldn't think twice, but i'd rather pay for it so i appreciate it more.

As i said before, there is a fine line to walk. While we do need to help users with legit dcc probs, if they dont specifically say they are in hot pursuit of illegal files or files from strangers, i dont think we should assume and refuse to help. My including the tips on dcc probs should have been in a diff sentence to be clearer. My point was that referring them to dcc tips, while at the same time pointing out the dangers, is sometimes the only fair course we can take. If its clear the question is solely for mass/illegal/bot/stranger downloading then we should explain why we wont help with that, which is the point of the sticky on that subject. The help they need is in the help file, in the stickies, which they can find easily enuf if they wanted to expend the effort. I suppose there could be an arguement for not having stickies on dcc probs, or dcc pending because they could be used by the very ppl we wont help. And yet, that would also mean denying help to someone who wants to get a friends pic. In most cases, including educating the possibly "innocent" user on the dangers while answering their question seems the best course of action.

Sure, we know some ppl are only asking for the "wrong" purposes and just dont say so, but we walk that line the best we can. Again, adding a warning about the consequences may give someone info they werent aware of while not accusing them. Its frustrating when you spend a lot of time helping someone here or in a channel and you just know they are only saying they want a file for a friend. But its not a perfect world, and to refuse all help on dcc in general wouldnt be fair to those who use it in the way it was intended to be used.

so _D3M0N_ can say it, but i can't?

One more post with the sole intent to insult another user, start a flame war, or with foul language and this thread gets closed. You want to bicker, take it private and dont subject the rest of us to it. It really is possible to have an unexpressed thought

IMHO:
Filesharing that is illegal isn't a good thing because it deprives an artist of their piece of the pie.
However, to treat the consumer of your product as an 'enemy' and a 'pirate' is just bad business - you don't chase down a shoplifter and beat him senseless, you cross it off as 'oh well, bound to happen' and provide a wider range of free samples (mmm... free candy)

I think what angers most people is the exspense involved: $35 AUD for a CD whcih is made of 25c worth of plastic and a whole lot of burn marks is quite stupid.
It's been shown by people with cd burners doing things on the sly that you can make a healthy profit by selling stuff as low as $5 a pop - sure thats illegal but it's demonstrated its quite possible.

Same thing with books - horribly exspensive, and for what?

Most of these items only have a limited period of mass-selling, and 6 months later the stuff is on the trash heap of industry...

The solution here is to stop with Gestapo scare tactics against the consumer and look at new ways to do things - the EFF offers several solutions.
My favourite is p2pfund.com, as it offers something for both artist and end consumer.

I think the other problem with high cost, low value wares (not warez) is the middleman being supported - Hopefully we WILL see a huge loss of jobs of agents, bigwigs, and the like who milk an artist and take huge chunks of their hard earned money - unfortunately it'll be the blue collar worker who probably ends out on their ear first.
It doesn't take any more than 3-4 people to get a book published electronically (author, proofer, promo guy and distributor guy), and costs very little to do.
If you sold online books and music at something just over their actual costs, we wouldn't have these problems.

Now, as for the IRC being a medium...
IRC is a means of communication. If MSN wasn't stuck through their servers and offered an open forum of communication between strangers, you'd see files being passed around or at least links to such things as FTP dumps and the like.
Its not going to go away.
Prosecution isn't an answer.
Change by both parties is.

Please do not say that filesharing is = illegal.

this is not true and a lot of fileswapping is done over irc. so why not swarming and sahring and partial filesahring as well ?

If there is a linux mandrake you can download it with mirc AND from your friend.

Mirc should implement a gnucleus. Thats all. Or better MLD oneky, it the deverlopers knows the devel language.

so a aol buddy or icq buddy hybridity with irc chatters, this woudl be nice,

And to repeat what's been said to you about a thousand times to the same post you keep making: There's no point making mIRC into gaim. If you want a program that works like gaim, guess what you can do... use gaim.

And for that matter, if you don't like what IRC clients lack in filesharing terms, guess what you can do... stop using IRC for filesharing.

It constantly amazes me that people will routinely come here and complain that mIRC's DCC causes large amounts of fragmentation for large-scale filesharing, that it is often much slower than their connection allows, that the resume function is 'fussy' at the best of times, that it lacks advanced hashing, swarming, and so on, yet their heads virtually explode at the very notion of using a protocol and client designed for filesharing which would solve all their problems.

I second that.

Nuff said.

PM

Well, there is a big difference between accepting
file sharing on IRC and making accommodations for
it. While it is true that everyone should just accept
the fact that mIRC/IRC is used for more than just
chat and get over it, I too would not like to see
any of your suggestions concerning mass file
sharing incorporated with mIRC at all.

Edit: In fact, said goes for your Gaim suggestion too.