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Re: leave window open after /part #42930 20/08/03 09:44 PM
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Watchdog Offline
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I've been co-running official help rooms for a long time now and I have to say that I don't mind people returning after 5 mins if they have a further question. It makes me feel wanted/needed. I'd much prefer someone to obtain the right answer to a question than to stuff something up.

Re: leave window open after /part #42931 20/08/03 10:47 PM
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codemastr Offline
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I am not being rude. Maybe you don't know what rude is. Please point out all the insults/name-calling I did in this thread? Oh you can't? Thats because it doesn't exist. And why the hell would I appologize if it gets added? That is probably one of the dumbest things I've heard yet.

Quote:
Have an idea for a future version? Post it here for discussion. Suggestions by users are often implemented in new versions of mIRC.


That doesn't say "Post it here and then everyone else will ignore it" or "Post it here, only if you want positive responses" or "Post here, but replies must only say 'good idea'."
I'm doing EXACTLY what it says, DISCUSSING. I am pointing out why I think it is bad, I never said "Khaled is an idiot if he adds it" if he adds it, that is his call. Nor did I say "You people are idiots for suggesting it." I merely stated why I don't believe it is useful. Furthermore I will NOT now nor will I EVER appologize to ANYONE for expressing my opinion. I value free speech more than anything else and I will NEVER appologize for exercising this right. I have no posted any insulting comments, I have not used any defamatory language, I simply voiced my opinion, and I don't think anyone should ever have to appologize for doing that.

As for seeking fights, it seems like you are the only one who mentioned anything along the lines of "fighting words" in this thread. You, unlike everyone else posting in this thread, felt the need to call me rude. And not just call me rude, you decided it was more appropriate to do this in the public forum rather than in a private message. Were you expecting me to say "thank you for this insult" of course not, YOU were expecting a fight.

Now back to the issue at hand, responding to people who are actually providing useful feedback.

Watchdog:
You misunderstood what I meant. I didn't mean people get mad when someone asks a followup question, what I meant is something like:
<user> hey how do I make mIRC send a notice out when someone joins a channel?
<op> ON !*:JOIN:#thechannel:{ .notice $chan hey! }
<user> thanks
* user left #help
* user joined #help
<user> what if I want it to say it to a nick instead of the channel?
<op> change the $chan to $nick
<user> thanks again
* user left #help
* user joined #help
<user> what if I want it to work on all channels I'm an op on?
<op> ON @!*:JOIN:#:{ .notice $nick Hey }
<user> thanks
* user left #help

That to me is much uglier than:
<user> hey how do I make mIRC send a notice out when someone joins a channel?
<op> ON !*:JOIN:#thechannel:{ .notice $chan hey! }
<user> thanks
<user> what if I want it to say it to a nick instead of the channel?
<op> change the $chan to $nick
<user> thanks again
<user> what if I want it to work on all channels I'm an op on?
<op> ON @!*:JOIN:#:{ .notice $nick Hey }
<user> thanks
That way it is a discussion, rather than a Q&A session which I feel is a better way to learn. Also, some channels have a "queue" where they +v people one at a time so not everyone is asking questions at once. Using /part in such a channel after asking each question would result in being placed at the end of the queue and having to wait again. Staying in the channel and asking the followup questions would not.

Re: leave window open after /part #42932 20/08/03 11:20 PM
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_D3m0n_ Offline
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ok lets pretend i care what u think of me. taking that into consideration and the fact i said u are rude in a public forum, well then id almost be inclided to appologize. thankfully tho we dont live in this lil pretend world, so therefore STOP acting rude and i wont have to point out the obvious. as for fightin words? when have i provoked u in anyway aside from saying ur rude ..... after u were infact in my opinion rude? how is it atleast 90% of your posts are negative in nature? if u feel you want an arguement ... hey have at it im a big boy and can play the inuendo debate game with u all freaking day. all im saying is u need to have alil less caffine or something. not everyone is going to share your sacred opinion.


D3m0nnet.com
Re: leave window open after /part #42933 21/08/03 04:31 AM
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Hammer Offline
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These were just three ideas on how the idea "might" be used that came to mind when I read your post. I didn't mean to imply that they were the only ones, nor even very good ones. They are, however, real-world examples.

Scenario 1
I see this almost everday by people who are busy intensely scripting something. They are busy coding away and can't quite "get" something, pop into #mIRC or #HelpDesk (on DALnet) to ask a quick question and then happily go back to writing their script that solves world hunger and has great lemonade to boot.

I also see people who rejoin because they lost the answer given them when their clipboard copy failed to capture the answer and/or they parted too fast as someone answered it. Not everyone logs every window, I know I certainly don't.

Scenario 2
Yes, the key issue is quite probably irrelevant since the key could just as easily have been changed in the interim. But thank you for objecting to that one minor subpoint so profusely and ignoring the rest. /clear, in this scenario, is irrelavent because it differs completely from the point of the first scenario where the buffer content is important. The point of this scenario is that a user is joining to see if it's yet possible to chat in that channel (based on how many lines are flying by), not what is being said, by whom or who all is in the channel.

You assume that they (or their script) have not blocked all those ugly /NAMES replies already...and you would be wrong; some scripts I know of, including a few of my own add-ons I have written at the special request of the people who hated to see that cluttering up their status window, hide the /NAMES reply.

Why must you insist that everyone do as you do, or would do, in any given situation? I realize that you know quite a bit about how mIRC works, where to go to change this setting or that setting; I also realize that all of this can, in fact, be scripted and have done so myself in the past. But Jane-Doe and NewUser don't necessarily know these things, nor can we possibly educate the entire mIRC-using public about every option available to them.

If you spend any time at all in any mIRC-related help channel, you will know that 95% of the users that come in to ask a question have not first availed themselves of /help. The other 5% did read it, but didn't understand it for one reason or another. So how would they know to change which options and where, or even why they would need to do so? (The new-to-average user, not a power user.)

You do not know that this scenario is not one that could quite easily arise from JohnNewbie. You do not think it can, perhaps. I can quite easily see it happening, and not just for a new user.

Scenario 3
On the servers that I have opered on, -A users cannot see +s channels, not with /who or /names and not in /whois nor in /list. Perhaps everyone who opers on your ircd can do so; I wouldn't know, I've never read your ircd. I see no need whatever to explain this one to you. If you can't see its use for an oper, then I rather suspect you don't actively oper anywhere. Even small networks have need for certain teams that could find this sort of thing beneficial. I don't think I need say anymore on that score.

Quote:
I really don't see[...]

Yes, I quite agree. You really don't see, or perhaps don't want to see; this is frequently the case. It seems that when you cannot see a use for a new suggested feature in your own terms, you automatically assume that everyone else falls into the same category as you and therefore thinks the same way you do. I would venture to suggest that you would indeed find uses for it, should it be added. I would also venture to suggest that there are a lot of others that would find life just a little simpler if you could keep the channel open. Why else do you think this has been mentioned or suggested so many times?

We cannot possibly envision the possibilities it could bring about. Relatively simple small changes have drastically changed the way we carry out our day-to-day mIRC lives; the evolution of my own use of mIRC has been interesting to follow. Just venturing a guess, I would imagine that I will indeed have a use for this (preferably if the nicklist could remain intact as well). Users have gotten used to [X]Keep channels open when disconnected or kicked. This is simply the logical next step in that chain of evolutions.

Of the three scenarios I posited, I might use the second and third scenarios (with the aforementioned nicklist caveat). That, to my way of thinking, is sufficiently real world for me. I probably wouldn't use the first one because that simply doesn't fit in with the way that I have gotten used to IRCing.


DALnet: #HelpDesk and #m[color:#FF0000]IR[color:#EEEE00]C
Re: leave window open after /part #42934 21/08/03 04:52 AM
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Hammer Offline
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Don't be so surprised when the puppy you're biting turns and bites you. Many of your own posts of late have been as inflamatory as the posts you were responding to; in some cases, more so. When I am responding to a post I find objectionable, I still try to respond to the content of the post, not the personality that wrote it. See my above reply to codemastr for an example of what I mean. Nowhere in it did I insult him; nowhere was it needed...insults rarely are.

In my humble opinion, there is way too much flaming going on here these days. This is very sad to see for the people who just stop by to learn more about mIRC and find ideas being debated and flames being routed around, even in the same thread. It's much easier to get your point across to someone when they do not feel threatened. Flames put people on their guard before they can even hear and understand what your point is, defeating your entire reason for posting in the first place.

As I've mentioned before, codemastr is abrasive and knows it; he does it intentionally (though why, I couldn't possibly guess). He knows this, I know this, you know this, everyone who has read more than three threads knows this.

If you don't like what he has to say or how he says it, you need not respond. There are a few people who post here whose posts I simply do not read at all because I end up wanting to tell them they are utter idiots and complete fools (neither of which are *cough* necessarily *cough* true).

If you disagree with the content of what he has to say and feel a need to post a correction, by all means, feel free. I certainly do! cool But reply to the content (which you can debate), not to the personality (which is not subject to debate).


DALnet: #HelpDesk and #m[color:#FF0000]IR[color:#EEEE00]C
Re: leave window open after /part #42935 21/08/03 06:21 AM
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* KingTomato gives Hammer an Advil (Your arthritis must be killing you by now! >:D)
* KingTomato gives ParaBrat a few PB cookies just so he's not to play favorites >:D


-KingTomato
Re: leave window open after /part #42936 21/08/03 02:59 PM
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codemastr Offline
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Fine, I'll admit your scenarios *could* happen, but what I asked (and no one has actually done yet) is provide a reason why they will use it. Not why someone else who may or may not exist will use it, why the poster himself would. Meaning you said you want this feature, but you've yet to really say why you want it, other than perhaps the thing with opers and getting a list of users on the channel. It seems no one here actually explained a reason why he/she will use it, everyone has just said "great idea," "I'll support that", no one has actually given their reason for wanting it, thats all I asked for; and I think thats a valid request seeing as how if no one really has a reason why it should be added... then why should it be added?

Re: leave window open after /part #42937 21/08/03 03:50 PM
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Hammer Offline
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Did you omit reading the last paragraph?

Quote:
Of the three scenarios I posited, I might use the second and third scenarios (with the aforementioned nicklist caveat). That, to my way of thinking, is sufficiently real world for me. I probably wouldn't use the first one because that simply doesn't fit in with the way that I have gotten used to IRCing.

The paragraph prior to that one also has cogent points.


DALnet: #HelpDesk and #m[color:#FF0000]IR[color:#EEEE00]C
Re: leave window open after /part #42938 21/08/03 04:07 PM
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Well I wasn't referring to just you, Racoon, _D3m0n_, and Watchdog all said they wanted this feature and that it would be a great feature, however none of them have provided reasons why it is needed and why it is a great feature. To my understanding, if you want to have something added, something that could very well take Khaled a good bit of time to do, then there should at least be reasons for adding it. As it stands now, all we've proven is that you have reasons for using it, and the third scenario you described, referring to being an oper, obviously doesn't apply to most IRCers since they are not opers. I'm just saying, does anyone have a reason why it is useful for IRCers in general?

Oh and about your second point, my response to that would be, if a user doesn't read the helpfile/understand it (which is what you suggest) then the user will most likely not know that /part -n exists and therefore won't use it.

Re: leave window open after /part #42939 21/08/03 07:37 PM
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Hammer Offline
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How about for a delayed /hop command? How about if you want to /part the channel .. wait 2 minutes .. then rejoin .. but you really don't want to clear your buffer?


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Re: leave window open after /part #42940 21/08/03 08:03 PM
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Watchdog Offline
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I never said it would be a great feature and I didn't imply it either, all I said is that I wanted to see it added.

Re: leave window open after /part #42941 21/08/03 09:18 PM
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_D3m0n_ Offline
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ok my reason for wanting to see this added is because i like the color yellow ....... which makes as much sense as why u wouldnt want to see it


D3m0nnet.com
Re: leave window open after /part #42942 21/08/03 09:21 PM
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pheonix Offline
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id rather see it added to but i think hes gave some good points why he doesnt want(see the use in) it added...


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Re: leave window open after /part #42943 21/08/03 09:29 PM
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codemastr Offline
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And you call me rude ? Yes it's very polite to answer a serious question with "I like the color yellow." My argument against the feature had (get this) FACTS, I didn't say "I like blue, and therefore this shouldn't be added." Hammer also presented FACTS in favor of this feature. Again, he didn't say "I like red, and therefore this should be added." YOU are the only one who has decided it is better to be nonsensical and waste everyone's time by posting such a stupid remark rather than providing real information that will actually show why the feature is needed. Or are you simply admitting that in fact the feature has no purpose? In which case, why are you arguing that it does?

Re: leave window open after /part #42944 21/08/03 09:36 PM
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_D3m0n_ Offline
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ok a sensical answer would be .. how many times have u accidentally cicked the X and closed a window and had to go back and read a logfile to find what u werer last talking about? never? once? twice? something like this would possibly help in that situation ... now on to reason 2. well it sure fits the thwme of the already there leave open on disconnect. and why is that not an important reason to u? for me it was infact one u overlooked. now on to my final reason, i personally like being able to leave my windows open if i want to quit just so i can scroll back thru and check out things i may have missed in a help channel, like if i asked a question and got 2 separate answers and said ok ty for the help and off went to try them out. why sit there till ur sure the suggestion worked? now these may not be important reasons to u. and they all have been mentioned. and as for my saying because i like yellow? so what live with it. i really dont feel i need to explain myself to u.


D3m0nnet.com
Re: leave window open after /part #42945 21/08/03 09:53 PM
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codemastr Offline
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Quote:
how many times have u accidentally cicked the X and closed a window and had to go back and read a logfile to find what u werer last talking about?

Never, and this is irrelevant. The feature in question was a /part -n, not clicking the X keeping the channel window open. Therefore even if this were added, the X would still close the window.

Quote:
well it sure fits the thwme of the already there leave open on disconnect. and why is that not an important reason to u?

So mIRC should have it simply because it "fits with the theme of mIRC?" Do I even have to explain why that is a bad argument?

Quote:
i personally like being able to leave my windows open if i want to quit just so i can scroll back thru and check out things i may have missed in a help channel, like if i asked a question and got 2 separate answers and said ok ty for the help and off went to try them out. why sit there till ur sure the suggestion worked?

Thats what the logfile is for.

Quote:
and as for my saying because i like yellow? so what live with it. i really dont feel i need to explain myself to u.

I never said you have to explain yourself to me, I said you have to explain your SUGGESTION to the MIRC COMMUNITY. I don't need you to explain yourself to me, your posts clearly tell me all I need to know, especially your "I like yellow" post. I already understand everything about you that I care to know, and from that I realize, I really don't care about anything you have to say on any topic since with that remark, to me, you clearly demonstrated your intellectual abilities and they are in my opinion lacking.

PS, if you want to take that as an insult, you are free to do so, however, after the barrage of insults, rude comments, and other defamatory comments you made against me, I feel it was completely warranted.

Re: leave window open after /part #42946 21/08/03 10:10 PM
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_D3m0n_ Offline
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lol and u still sit back acting smug ...... oh well its clearly shown that no matter what anyone says u have your mind made up ...... simple fact is im glad codemastr isnt the author of mirc ..... it wuldnt have anything in it codemastr doesnt like. next topic please. as for feeling insulted by u? nah u dont know me i dont know u. this is all just words on a screen. go back to reading ur howto script books .. and enjoy your evening


D3m0nnet.com
Re: leave window open after /part #42947 21/08/03 10:13 PM
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pheonix Offline
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heh, your no better than grasshole on ms.org shocked


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Re: leave window open after /part #42948 21/08/03 10:24 PM
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_D3m0n_ Offline
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and your insight on this suggestion is?????


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Re: leave window open after /part #42949 21/08/03 10:25 PM
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pheonix Offline
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just my opinion, i'm sure you'll get over it


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