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Posted By: Sprice

Request - 10/08/03 04:52 AM

I would like to request authorization to start an mIRC help channel on the GamesNET Network [ irc.gamesnet.net ] in channel #mIRC - For registration of the channel with GamesNET, they require that I get full written permission from Mr. Mardam-Bey himself to run this channel. Please, if you could take the time to e-mail me permission (or disproval) for the channel, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank-you. --> email here: dallas@gutauckis.com or sprice@pixelbum.com Thanks.
Posted By: Raccoon

Re: Request - 10/08/03 05:55 AM

Interesting network policy.

I would recommend writing directly to Khaled on that one.

Mind you, what you are asking is for Khaled to consent to your use of the mIRC name, implying you represent mIRC.com in some official capacity and giving your channel some kind of Official Status.

While it is true that some existing #mIRC channels have Khaled's direct favor... they have been around for nearly a decade and through much effort. It just doesn't seem likely, or even fair to these other channels, that Khaled would simply sign such consent and favor at every random request.

I would consider what you're asking for, and perhaps why you're asking for it, before you do.

- Raccoon
Posted By: FunChatter

Re: Request - 10/08/03 07:38 AM

Not sure if you need to talk to Khaled or to Tjerk...?? I'm not sure I had talk with whom of them but I was told that there is no permision thing to open a mIRC help channel, that there are no official/un-official #mIRC help channels... And I doubt Khaled or Tjerk would give sutch an official permision to someone they don't know/can't trust. smile
Posted By: nightstal

Re: Request - 10/08/03 08:32 AM

i am active on many of the servers out there and on loads of rooms as i get info from many freinds.

i have seen and used several of the #mirc help rooms as to get a script sorted out and running properly.

but the main sorce i use and come back to is the web address of mirc or here reading many of the posts.

you may feel that you need to open anouther help room but take a bit of advice from me.

i have run and owned my own chat room on several of the servers and belive me it a headace and a lot and i mean a lot of hard work.

its nice that someone out there is prepared to offer help out there but if you any good and i am not saying your not but why not put your talents to good use here where this comunity has paid for the product and is prepared to help each other in situations that require it.

i myself have been a mirc user for a very long time right back when i used a 56k modem but its only been a short time that i myself registered to this forum.

i have lerned more here in this short time than i ever did on all the help rooms i have ever been to.

reading all the posts and looking at the replies it has answered many long term questions.

put your talent here to those that are a comunity and prepared to help each other. grin
Posted By: Sprice

Re: Request - 10/08/03 09:45 AM

Well, I can understand the reason why you might not think it's "fair" for us/them, however... we are only interested in ONE thing in the channel, that is to help. We've been running the channel for about 2 months or so now, and we are ALL loving it to death. The fact that we get to share our overwhelming knowledge for computers and computer software is just a great experience for us all. We do not want to serve as any kind of opponent to any other network's help channels, we are just there to help all of the newbies to mIRC and all sorts of other things on that network. You see, we don't just help with mIRC in that room (even though that is a majority of the questions) we also help with Game server setup questions, Windows help, Computer hardware questions, and all sorts of other programs. All I am asking is that we get consent to use the name for our channel to help people as much as we possibly can... not to serve as any type of competition, so, in saying that, I bid farewell as I go to sleep, in preperation for another day of questioning in the #mIRC help channel!
Posted By: Raccoon

Re: Request - 10/08/03 12:55 PM

That's another point I wanted to bring up, having been to the channel myself.

Typically, the more recognized #mIRC channels are fairly strict about the questiones that are asked. Most of them live by this simple motto, paraphrasing...

"We only help with the legal and non-disruptive use of mIRC and the IRC protocol."

Granted, people sometimes ask and answer non-mIRC/IRC questions, but will not assist users with warez, mp3s, games, cracks, fservers and other conceivably illegal downloading, etc... anything that might suggest that #mIRC ops condone illegal activities. (mind you, porn isn't illegal wink)

Looking closer at the network's policies, it appears they made it impossible to register #mIRC to prevent responsibility for creating such a negative image for authors like Khaled. By Khaled granting you permission to register this channel, he would be directly responsible for any of your channel's ill-doings.

However, I still suggest emailing him directly rather than waiting for a reply to this thread.

- Raccoon
Posted By: Watchdog

Re: Request - 10/08/03 01:08 PM

By Khaled granting you permission to register this channel, he would be directly responsible for any of your channel's ill-doings.

It's a pretty odd interpretation of the Common Law for a network to make. Especially since:

1. mIRC Co. Ltd declares that they don't run or endorse any networks or channels.
2. While "mIRC" is a trademark "#mIRC" isn't. So the associations can't be matched from a legal standpoint.
3. Every network that I know of has a #mIRC channel so the precedent for some sort of legal indemnity would already exist.

The way I see it, all #mIRC rooms are regsitered and owned without any permission being granted or needing to be granted.
Posted By: Raccoon

Re: Request - 10/08/03 01:20 PM

It's a pretty odd interpretation of the Common Law for a network to make. Especially since:
We don't live by Common Law.

1. mIRC Co. Ltd declares that they don't run or endorse any networks or channels.
Exactly why Khaled probably will not endorse this channel with his expressed written permission.

2. While "mIRC" is a trademark "#mIRC" isn't. So the associations can't be matched from a legal standpoint.
The # character is silent, variable, and sometimes even invisible.

3. Every network that I know of has a #mIRC channel so the precedent for some sort of legal indemnity would already exist.
I can say with utmost certainty that none of the #mIRC channels Khaled endorses has any ties to illegal activities.

The way I see it, all #mIRC rooms are regsitered and owned without any permission being granted or needing to be granted.

If you read the history of mIRC, you'd know that Tjerk started the "First Official #mIRC Help Channel". Correct, no permission was needed and/or granted, but was certainly given. According to irc.gamesnet.net, permission is needing to be granted.[/color]

- Raccoon
Posted By: Watchdog

Re: Request - 10/08/03 01:41 PM

The # character is silent, variable, and sometimes even invisible

As far as trademarks go, nothing is silent. Anything that is visible to the human eye can either constitute part of a, or differentiate between two or more, trademark(s). I don't dispute Gamesnet's interpretation, if you've quoted their ruling then that's that. What I am saying is that there is no actual law that supports what they are saying. If someone wanted to go to a network and open/register/run a room called #mIRC then there is nothing that anyone else (apart from network staff) that can do anything about it.

We don't live by Common Law

Then you have no real idea what the Common Law actually is. Common Law covers not only any behaviour of a person or entity acceptable to society in general that is not covered by a statute, it also applies to interpretation of statute by a court where the statute either has no precedence or contains open-ended clauses, commonly referred to as loop-holes. This is in addtion to any historic meaning, interpretation, implementation of Common Law pertaining to the unwritten consititution of Great Britain or King John or the Duke of Normandy, etc etc etc.
Posted By: starbucks_mafia

Re: Request - 10/08/03 01:52 PM

Once again a simple post turns into a raging law rant-off where people talk bollocks about a subject they in all honesty have very little actual knowledge of. None of which would even apply to the actual thread topic anyway.
Posted By: Watchdog

Re: Request - 10/08/03 02:07 PM

You shouldn't talk, 95% of your posts are rants, or put more eloquently, points of order. If you want to question what I know about law we can always discuss the issue via email if you'd like. If not, well that's okay too.
Posted By: starbucks_mafia

Re: Request - 10/08/03 02:44 PM

A quick perusal of my posts for the last week shows you presenting guesswork as facts once again:
30 posts this week (including this one).
- 4.5 (15%) of which were opinions (one post was two distinct paragraphs, one was an opinion, hence the 0.5)
  `- 4.5 100% of which were on-topic and presented as opinions, not as fact.
- 3 (10%) of which were rants (including the one you just replied to)
`- 3 (10%) of which were simply asking other people to stop their neverending bitchfests/rants.
- leaving 22.5 (75%) of my posts which were either fact, question, or discussion.

You'll notice there was no need for a 'bollocks' category. I wonder how you would do.

Gotta love stats.
Posted By: Watchdog

Re: Request - 10/08/03 02:58 PM

The last week? What does that prove since there's been a forum here for the last 2 - 3 years. The very fact that you respond so keenly to debates of the nature that were here and are now here since you changed the subject proves my point quite validly.

If you get down to the thrust of what was being discussed by myself and Racoon you'd see that it was a discussion about whether or not a room called "#mIRC" could be deemed illegal if not approved by Khaled or mIRC Co. as a whole. I wasn't even disagreeing with his original response. But noooooo, you just had to throw in your own two-bob's worth, along with your customary baseless allegations.
Posted By: starbucks_mafia

Re: Request - 10/08/03 03:09 PM

I took a reasonable amount of posts from an entire block of time (so you couldn't accuse me of being selective) to get a sample statistics set.

Speaking of which:
0% baseless accusations found. Oh dear, wrong again Watchdog?

I didn't change the subject, you did. You accused me (baselessly I might add, as I have already proven) of being hypocritical in my previous request for you to stop ranting about legal issues in a thread which did not concern law.

I reiterate: The thread did not concern law. There would never be any legal responsibilities on Khaled's part for an IRC channel named #mIRC. If you would dispute that then you can stop reading any of my posts, I'm afraid I only deal with reason and logic. What was of concern in the thread is that the network in question requested that the poster get Khaled's permission to maintain a channel called #mIRC. That is to do with the network's rules, it did not involve laws in any way. All that was required of other members of the board was to either suggest he email Khaled about it (which you did), or to simply leave the thread alone. That's all that was needed. On that note, I think it's time I take my own advice and leave this thread alone. If you want to discuss this or just throw more baseless accusations my way I'd ask that you do it in a private message. There's no need to bore others with this.
Posted By: Watchdog

Re: Request - 10/08/03 03:15 PM

No threads here concern law. Yet the subject is often raised and not only by me.

Your baseless allegation = "where people talk bollocks about a subject they in all honesty have very little actual knowledge of"

You don't know what anyone else here knows or doesn't know so keep the muckraking to yourself please.
Posted By: Raccoon

Re: Request - 10/08/03 04:16 PM

la la la la la

forget I said anything.

This one is for Khaled to answer anyway.
Posted By: Watchdog

Re: Request - 10/08/03 04:26 PM

Yep, we can agree on that. grin
Posted By: Sprice

Re: Request - 10/08/03 06:20 PM

We, in NO way help with or endorse ANYTHING illegal, we actually simply kickban those which ask for such a thing. We are there just to help, and please, if you're going to fight, do it elsewhere, I am making a request not a nag-fest. Thanks
Posted By: Watchdog

Re: Request - 10/08/03 06:33 PM

Originally I commented on the policy of the network, I didn't accuse anyone of doing anything illegal, infact far from it. Perhaps I was a bit vague with my original post but I am actually supporting your cause in an indirect sense.
Posted By: nightstal

Re: Request - 10/08/03 07:22 PM

my 2 pennies worth

there are a lot of pirate share channels all over the world on many servers and on many rooms.

it can nerver be stopped or ever be blotted out its impossible.

the truth is its a sad thing and the net is useing mirc programe to exploit it.

i can name a few rooms but i wont that as soon as something is released its on the net 10 mins after it is released reguardless of where in the world.

i am not saying i like it or dislike it but people will always take things for free if it dangled under there nose long enougth.

i can see many points of the law being broken and used but you cannot condon a programe or a author if its misued for wrong doing.

if as you all say a #mirc help room was set up on every network and used as a pure help room i cant see a danger of it. as a matter of fact it would be nice to have support there and then.

but i stress there will be pms flying between peeps with the best places to get this and that so even in a sterial situation it would never stamped out its impossible.

i also raise the issue of the author being done for a wrong doing on mirc.

this its self is not true he is the author and has made it plain thats its sole use was as a chat programe but has been exploited to far worse things. this is not his responaceability but the people that created the room and registered it.

he had or has no control over this and there for the responcabilty is not his doing.

you dont sue a tv manufacture if someone buys a tv then walks out of a shop and puts it over someones head.it was made to be watched not a knock out drug.

and the same thing applies to the author of mirc.
Posted By: Watchdog

Re: Request - 10/08/03 07:36 PM

Yes all of what you said is true, which is why I think Gamesnet is being overly cautious.

When someone applies for a channel on my network the application is sometimes referred to a solicitor who then says 'aye' or 'no' to the application, because at times there has been issues with things like trademarks but in this case I doubt Khaled or Gamesnet would have anything to worry about.
Posted By: codemastr

Re: Request - 10/08/03 08:12 PM

I don't think they are being overly cautious, I think they are being ridiculous. Do they block #Windows from being registered unless Bill Gates gives an OK? It's really a stupid policy.
Posted By: starbucks_mafia

Re: Request - 10/08/03 08:32 PM

I'm sure it's nothing to do with legality of any sort. It's simply because people will often hear something like '#mIRC is the official mIRC channel, you can trust those guys', and then of course they run off to #mIRC on any random network and assume it's the one and only channel by that name. Still, it does seem excessive.
Posted By: codemastr

Re: Request - 10/08/03 08:39 PM

Well I'm not talking legality. Put it this way, are #x-chat, #bitchx, #ircle, etc set up the same way? If someone joins a #bitchx, regardless of the network, it is likely that they will make the same assumption that most would with #mirc, that it is official. So what I'm saying is, I doubt they do it for every other IRC client out there, so why are they doing it for mIRC? Makes no sense to me...
Posted By: Sprice

Re: Request - 11/08/03 01:11 AM

Actually, on this network, generally they do not allow any other kinds of channels to be registered other than gaming channels. All of the people that come into the channel only come there because they see advertisements which we put out saying that we help with just about everything (nothing legal of course) However, being that we take so much of a load off of the #support channel that they have (frequently gets over 2000 hits per day) they like the idea of the channel, but don't want to register the name to us until the owner of the name itself consents. As you will see in their channel registration guidelines, either the owner must have it registered to him, or give consent to a certain person to register the channel. On a side note, I am wondering why it is that you keep going back to the topic of illegal software and the such, we do NOT allow anything of the sort and wish that you would stop going to that topic.
Posted By: Raccoon

Re: Request - 11/08/03 02:16 AM

#mIRC never advertises.
Posted By: codemastr

Re: Request - 11/08/03 03:29 AM

I don't recall mentioning illegal software, not even once.
Posted By: ParaBrat

Re: Request - 11/08/03 07:23 PM

I'm sure that you realize that the only person this should be directed to is Khaled. If he doesnt reply here, i suggest you email him.

We do tend to stick mainly with mIRC related questions and try to aim ppl in the right direction for other issues. Since you intend your channel to be much more diversified, have you considered coming up with a more inclusive name?

General comments:
Note that in the mIRC FAQ, Tjerk says "If you have further questions about mIRC, please visit the IRC channel #mIRC on EFnet, IRCnet, Undernet or Dalnet." As a SOp on DALnet #mIRC and knowing the ops on the other networks as well as Khaled, i can assure you that we are all well aware that its our responsibility to maintain the standards he expects from us. I think to ask him to give some sort of "official approval" to someone he doesnt know and trust is asking a bit too much, but thats just my opinion.

It isnt up to anyone other than Gamesnet to set their policies, but they do state the "mission of this network is to register computer gaming related channels" and that "Channels are to be registered to the current leader of the organization that the channel represents". mIRC is a registered trademark, so i can see their point.

Seems like whenever ppl see the word mIRC they assume Khaled is in there someplace, whereas if they see windows they rarely think bill gates knows anything about it. If they go into a #mIRC on something.net and have a bad experience, they tar all #mIRC's and Khaled with the same brush.

Regardless, the only one who can address the original question is Khaled. Its up to him whether or not he wants to give "official sanction" to anything and up to Gamesnet what policies they set about the matter. So could we stop with yet another legal discusssion and quibbling over who posted what when?
Posted By: Mentality

Re: Request - 12/08/03 12:14 AM

What makes me laugh is that the people who are telling GamesNET users to get Khaled's permission to register a channel (for whatever reason, legal or otherwise) are the same people who say "It's just IRC, don't take it so seriously".

I can see their point though. Kinda.

*gives out pie* smirk

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