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#67031 08/01/04 01:42 AM
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Fjord artisan
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It was by chance I stumbled across the HTML markup for the front page of the mirc site.
I'm kinda shocked - it sure as hell doesn't even come close to validation, makes a huge use of ugly font tags and is gibberish syntax wise.

Once I forced the validator to try and call it HTML 4.01 Transitional, it spat out the following.

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3...2C+worldwide%29

I'd very much like to see the site lose the tables and font tags, make use of CSS, and generally have valid markup without horrible MS tags.

Below; I sketched out something (although it won't validate as it lacks the meta charset declaration) which might point you towards a better site:

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>CSS mirc redone</title>
<style>
body {
background-color:#FFFFEF;
color:#000066;
margin:20px;
}
h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6 {
font-family:Ms Sans Serif,Sans-serif,Geneva;
color:#CC0000;
}
.date {
color:#006342;
font-size:0.9em;
}
a:link {
color:#0000CC;
}
a:visited {
color:#000066;
}
a:alink {
color:#000066;
}

#menu {
width:100px;
text-align:right;
padding-bottom:10px;
}
#content {
position:absolute;
left:110px;
top:100px;
padding-top:20px;
margin-left:10px;
padding-left:10px;
}
#header {
height:100px;
}
#header a, #menu a {
font-size:0.9em;
}
#footer {
border-top:1px solid black;
padding-top:3px;
margin:20px;
bottom:0px;
font-size:0.8em;
}
#logo {
width:100px;
height:55px;
border:none;
}
#search {
font-size:0.7em;
}
#links {
left:110px;
padding-left:20px;
position:absolute;
}
</style>
</head>

<body>
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#67032 08/01/04 02:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
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Hoopy frood
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that was nice of you smile


http://MTec89Net.com
irc.freenode.net #MTec89Net
#67033 09/01/04 12:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
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Hoopy frood
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I agree, though what your sample contains would almost satisfy an XHTML1.1 validation which is better still. I'd make another two changes to the front page.

1. Get rid of that ugly default font and use something nice like Trebuchet.
2. Mention the date in the correct format, ie: dd MMMM yyyy

I think the mIRC logo should lose it's old fashioned colourscale too and be remade in a more precise way in Photoshop.

#67034 09/01/04 01:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
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Hoopy frood
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Here, on Win98, I don't have the font "Trebuchet". Isn't it a commercial one?

#67035 09/01/04 02:45 PM
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Hoopy frood
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"Trebuchet MS" is one on my Windows 98SE install. Pretty sure it's a default font as I don't recall ever installing it (or using it). I have IE 5.5.

- Raccoon


Well. At least I won lunch.
Good philosophy, see good in bad, I like!
#67036 09/01/04 09:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
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Hoopy frood
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Quote:
Once I forced the validator to try and call it HTML 4.01 Transitional, it spat out the following.

- Well yes, it doen't meet HTML 4.01 Transitional specs by a long shot... but seeing as it doesn't declare itself as HTML 4.01 that's hardly a problem is it?


Quote:
I'd very much like to see the site lose the tables and font tags, make use of CSS, and generally have valid markup without horrible MS tags.

The font tags are pretty unnecessary and could be removed in place of a simple CSS addition, however table tags have many valid uses which CSS2 can't come close to reproducing correctly, and seeing as CSS3 is years away from being W3C recommended and then implemented, and even more years away from being implemented correctly, I'd hardly consider table tags to be something to be removed unnecesarily. Incidentally your layout has about a dozen minor flaws when validated with the W3C validator, the most obvous being the lack of a type attribute for the style tag - not much good using CSS if a browser doesn't know what it is is it? (Yes, I'm aware that most browsers will assume it's CSS, but still...).

From a look at the layout it seems to me that the front page is changed by hand, which means declaring it as a strict format instead of allowing browsers to use quirks-mode parsing would mean any errors done when adding a new entry could make the site behave very strangely for some browsers. Surely it's better to leave it undeclared and simply append some CSS to make the markup cleaner - and adding new entries easier.


Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
#67037 10/01/04 04:50 PM
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Fjord artisan
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Oh, I agree that it doesn't claim to be any kind of valid html, its just... distressing, like a half chewed up rabbit on the side of the road.

Admittedly CSS2 can't do a lot of the things that we'd like it to, but tables for layout are still nasty.

I'm sure that most of the people who've replied here or many many others in the miRC community would love to help out in reauthoring many of the pages into, if not tableless HTML, valid HTML and so forth.

#67038 12/01/04 05:56 PM
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Hoopy frood
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tables are still great to do layout with though at some points divs also work...

I like tables and I like divs... I just use both :-]

and why change the code if none of the browsers have problems displaying the site ?


If it ain't broken, don't fix it!
#67039 13/01/04 09:58 AM
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Tables bog down a site's rendering time.

#67040 13/01/04 10:53 AM
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-KingTomato
#67041 13/01/04 03:36 PM
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Hoopy frood
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*Gasp* 0.207 seconds instead of 0.143 to render a webpage! I don't know if I can wait that long.

KingTomato: The largest single blob of information on the site you've linked is the list of places where table's are better than div's. The simple fact is that div's would be better in many ways, but the CSS to control them dynamically in a way that makes them truly capable of matching table's for non-pixel-fixed layouts simply isn't there. And as I said earlier in this thread, CSS3 is a long way off.


Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
#67042 20/01/04 08:06 AM
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It's a classic case of browser vendors not being willing to support CSS correctly, rather than an inherited inability of CSS to do it's job. In a more general sense there is not a single language or technology that allows a webpage to display the same way in every browser out there. Even all but the most basic HTML doesn't qualify.

Why is this so? The Internet has too many self appointed chiefs and not enough indians. None of the so-called authorities that have any sway in how the Internet works was ever elected yet they can sit there and call themselves what they like.

Thank Christ they don't build bridges or roads this way.

#67043 20/01/04 11:39 PM
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Quote:
It's a classic case of browser vendors not being willing to support CSS correctly, rather than an inherited inability of CSS to do it's job.

- No. The shortcomings I was referring to are in CSS itself, not the implementations. Most (if not all) of which are being addressed in the CSS3 proposals.

Quote:
None of the so-called authorities that have any sway in how the Internet works was ever elected yet they can sit there and call themselves what they like.

- Well the W3C which governs all Web standards including CSS was founded by Tim Berners-Lee, who also created the World Wide Web itself, so I'd say they're more than 'so-called authorities'. Of course if by 'so-called authorities' you meant certain browser vendors (yes, Microsoft, I'm looking at you) taking it upon themselves to *rework* standards to their liking then yes, it is a major problem that people should demand be stopped.


Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
#67044 21/01/04 08:19 AM
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Why is it that you have to say "if" all the time? It just proves that you only ever comment to try to be one up on other people. Quite frankly I don't care much as to what part of CSS you were addressing given that my first post wasn't in reply to you. If I choose to digress or generalise then I will. The fact still remains that browser development is light years BEHIND what it should be as is the ability of browsers to understand what is being fed to them by the server.

When I make a website, it annoys the hell out of me when I view the page in a browser and find that it lines up differently in another. Sometimes the difference is only one pixel but that is still relevant if attention to detail is what someone is looking for. In light of this it is reasonable to suggest that browser development needs to play catch-up.

There are some dreadful websites on the net. Most of the sites that fit into that catagory are riddled with java applets, Flash animations, heavy JPG images and plenty of tables. The so-called webmasters that put these sites together bask in self admiration at what a high-tech site they have put together but forget that millions of 'Net users still use 33k and 56k connections and will do so for many years to come as ISDN, ADSL and Cable are unaffordable in many cases. It's a little unfair to expect people to visit a site when it is bogged down in such an archaic way. Your wise-crack of "*Gasp* 0.207 seconds instead of 0.143 to render a webpage! I don't know if I can wait that long." is therefore meaningless.

Lastly, and in light of what I just said, this is largley why so many corporate websites are still coded in HTML 4.0. The owners are paying tens of thousands of $ to people who need to make sure that the company's online presence can be viewed in as many browsers as possible.

#67045 21/01/04 01:15 PM
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Hoopy frood
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Quote:
Why is it that you have to say "if" all the time? It just proves that you only ever comment to try to be one up on other people.

- What? I'm sorry, I didn't realise the word 'if' offends you...


Quote:
Quite frankly I don't care much as to what part of CSS you were addressing given that my first post wasn't in reply to you.

Again: what? Who's talking about your first post? I was replying to your last post which was a reply to me.


Quote:
If I choose to digress or generalise then I will.

Huh? Should you be using the word 'if'? I'll read that as 'If I choose to talk complete bollocks then I will', because having read your post that's exactly what you've done.


Quote:
The fact still remains that browser development is light years BEHIND what it should be as is the ability of browsers to understand what is being fed to them by the server.

- Not as far as I can see. With the exception of a couple of browsers (unfortunately some of the popular ones) who shall remain nameless, I'd say web standards are finally getting close to being accurately and consistently reproduced in a wide range of systems and devices.


Quote:
When I make a website, it annoys the hell out of me when I view the page in a browser and find that it lines up differently in another. Sometimes the difference is only one pixel but that is still relevant if attention to detail is what someone is looking for. In light of this it is reasonable to suggest that browser development needs to play catch-up.

- I write my sites to XHTML/CSS2 standards and, apart from the previously mentioned *evil* browsers, it will be pixel-perfect in all browsers except for a few of the more advanced features such as counters and generated content.


Quote:
There are some dreadful websites on the net. Most of the sites that fit into that catagory are riddled with java applets, Flash animations, heavy JPG images and plenty of tables. The so-called webmasters that put these sites together bask in self admiration at what a high-tech site they have put together but forget that millions of 'Net users still use 33k and 56k connections and will do so for many years to come as ISDN, ADSL and Cable are unaffordable in many cases.

- I find it amusing that you group tables in with flash, java, and large jpegs, as if they're some kind of monstrously huge bandwidth eating markup. Tables also aren't high-tech, so that sentence is also irrelevant.


Quote:
It's a little unfair to expect people to visit a site when it is bogged down in such an archaic way. Your wise-crack of "*Gasp* 0.207 seconds instead of 0.143 to render a webpage! I don't know if I can wait that long." is therefore meaningless.

- I'm gonna have to go back to: what? My *wise-crack* is the exact response I'd use again to the 'bogged down' sentence. Why is it meaningless for me to point out that what you call 'bogged down' is a matter of milliseconds?


Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
#67046 21/01/04 08:34 PM
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Hoopy frood
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Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.

Yep, I agree because if you were making websites compliant with the latest standards you'd be using as few tables as humanly possible. That said I am not going to bother answering to any more of your posts because the only compliance you ever seem to adhere to is your signature and I just don't have the time for it.

#67047 22/01/04 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.

Yep, I agree because if you were making websites compliant with the latest standards you'd be using as few tables as humanly possible.

- There is nothing in the latest standards preventing or discouraging the use of tables in any form. It is simply a case of <table> not being the *correct* tag to use to design layouts, however until recently there were no reasonable alternatives. But, as I have already said in this thread, there are still many situations where tables are the only possible way to create certain basic designs, and as such, they are necessary. There is no issue whatsoever with compliance here, it is simply a matter of style that tables should only be used to tabular data unless necessary.


Quote:
That said I am not going to bother answering to any more of your posts because the only compliance you ever seem to adhere to is your signature and I just don't have the time for it.

- Of course. I've come to expect your trademark facade of taking the 'high road' as a way of not replying to my points and so never having to admit your mistakes. It doesn't even bother me anymore.


Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.

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