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#41502 - 15/08/03 06:14 PM Re: Image question
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
Quote:
At the same time I just made a PNG with Photoshop and saved it at 6.82KB and then coverted to GIF which saved at 2.97KB.

Yes, you're right, the thing is it is highly dependant on the settings. I don't know or Photoshop handles it, but in GIMP there is a "compression level" slider, the more I increase the compression (which is lossless) the smaller the image becomes. Also, you can index png just like you can gif. I created a black image (256x256) it was 328bytes, then I indexed it to 2 colors and it dropped to 156bytes. Then playing with a few more png settings I reduced it to 103bytes. Using gif the smallest I could get it was 384bytes. Why? Because the bit depth of a gif is ALWAYS 8 bits (256 colors). Where as, with png, since the image was just one color, I reduced the bit depth to 1 bit (2 colors). So the savings is signifigant when using png for simple images that use less than 256 colors.

Quote:
For the record I didn't follow the links provided because it's obvious that you wouldn't provide anything contrary to what you mentioned but what Yale University (where-ever that is) finds as a result of some experiment is clearly not being used in practice.

Well there is a reason why I didn't provide any evidence to the contrary... I couldn't find any! I found _one_ site (which I could only find cached on google, because the site itself is gone) http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:R6I...mp;amp;ie=UTF-8 Where they mentioned _one_ specific (and very rare) case where a gif will be smaller than a png. That was the only evidence I could find that said a gif could be better than png. Every organization I could find said use png, not gif. The only other cases I can find where people say png is larger than gif is when you are using a 24bit png image (true color) but of course it is obvious that a png storing 24bit information (which most pngs on the web do not) will be larger, so I didn't consider that a weakness since gif can't even support 24bit color. If you can find me evidence to the contrary, I'll gladly read through it, but I could not find any on my own. When I search google for "gif smaller than png" "gif better compression than png" "image format comparison" "png jpg gif" all I find is people reporting how much better png is than gif and jpg. Oh and Yale University is an Ivy League school that is probably in the top 10 universities in the US and probably in the top 25 in the world.

Quote:
In light of this, I visited my own sites plus the two you own and there are GIF files a-plenty and 0% PNGs that I happened to have seen


Well I own more than 2 sites. If you look at solarstats.net you'll notice that all except 2 images are png (and those two images will be converted within the next couple of days). codemastr.com has 3 images (which is hardly files a-plenty) 2 of which are gif's, those will also be converted in the next few days. The only site you could have been referring to would be unrealircd.com, and I'm not the webmaster of that site. If I were, it would all be png by now. Oh and the only reason the pics on codematr.com are gif was because at the time, my png plugin for GIMP wasn't working so I couldn't create a png image, I've since fixed the problem or else it would have always been png.

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#41503 - 15/08/03 08:28 PM Re: Image question
rogue Offline
Babel fish

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 73
Quote:
Oh and to rogue, who mentioned about IE's lack of alpha transparency support. Yes you are right, IE does not support this, however neither does gif. So why does that make png useless? It's not like if you use gif you can use alpha transparency, so your argument doesn't make any sense to me at all. It's like saying you have a choice between A and B, B has signifigant advantages over A. However, both A and B lack a feature. Therefore you should use A. Well A doesn't have the feature either, so all you're doing is losing out on all the added benefits that B would provide. That makes no sense at all...


Let me rephrase what I said... since IE doesn't support PNG's 8 bit alpha channels which allows the images to be semi transparent, any transparent area of a PNG will display at 100% opacity. At least with GIF, so called "binary transparency" is rendered by IE.

Here's a cludgy work-a-round for IE if anyone is interested... wanted to include the link in my original post, but couldn't find it at the time.

I'd also have to agree with Watchdog when it comes to my own personal experiences working with GIF and PNG file sizes... I'm sure PNG should be smaller theoretically but I have yet to see it in my own graphics. I had heard that Adobe Photoshop wasn't very good at PNG compression so, on more then one occasion, I tried other graphic utilities and ended up with the same results.

PNG probably is better for certain types of images but I've yet to find what that might be.
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#41504 - 15/08/03 09:17 PM Re: Image question
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
Image transparency for a png image (the full transparency, not alpha transparency) works perfectly for me in IE 6. That file contains transparency... It displays perfectly for me in IE6 and NS7. You're right, if you have a semitransparent area, it will display at full opacity, but if you have a full transparent area, it will display as transparent, which allows it to function with all the ability gif has. And for the file sizes, as Watchdog mentioned, my sites did use gif. When I switched to png, and using some compression techniques, and limiting the color palette, I saw an average of a 20% decrease in image size on every image. For example, that validcss png above is 889bytes. The exact same image as a gif is 1211bytes. If you don't believe me, look at the file sizes of that one (gif) and the one posted earlier in this post (png).

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#41505 - 15/08/03 10:39 PM Re: Image question
Watchdog Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2984
Loc: Hill End, NSW, Australia
Okay, so what does that prove? It proves that one programme can compress a PNG smaller than a GIF.

Quote from PNG Homepage: PNG was designed to be the successor to the once-popular GIF format, which became decidedly less popular right around New Year's Day 1995 when Unisys and CompuServe suddenly announced that programs implementing GIF would require royalties...

Okay so we have some greedy corporate entities that sought to make a fast quid from the so-called "Once popular" GIF format. However when I visited ten popular Australian websites and ten popular US websites I found that GIF was still the overall favourite for the webmasters of every single one of those sites with photos being in JPG format:

NineMSN - GIF
Microsoft - GIF
Google (AU) - GIF
Hotmail - GIF
Yahoo (AU) - GIF
MSN - GIF
Google (Int) - GIF
Yahoo (Int) - GIF
News Corp (AU) - GIF
Commonwealth Bank - JPG

Thanks to Redsheriff's stupid automatic redirection system I can't find the top ten US sites so I'll guess some.

CNN - GIF
MSNBC - GIF
Altavista - GIF
General Motors - GIF
C Net - GIF
US Stock Exchange - GIF
CBS TV Network - JPG
Ford - GIF
RCA - GIF
RIAA - GIF

And the PNG home page has the audacity to call GIF "once popular"?
*Watchdog rolls on the floor laughing.

And how do they explain the claim that GIF became "less popular" due to the royalties slapped on programmes that recognise the GIF format? Quite plainly they can't. Why? Because every imaging editor that I know of, from the ordinary upto the industry standard all recognise and manipulate GIF just as they do PNG, BMP, JPG, TIFF and many others. Why? because that's what people want.
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#41506 - 15/08/03 11:45 PM Re: Image question
starbucks_mafia Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2962
Loc: Norwich, UK
The point is that PNG/MNG are superior file formats in every way. Smaller, more adaptable, more features, etc. So, for future development it makes sense to use and support PNG/MNG rather than GIF. Whether there are existing sites still using GIFs is totally irrelevant, thre's a good chance the webmasters on a lot of those sites aren't even aware of the royalty issues involving GIFs, or that PNG/MNG is around and are altogether better file formats. Even if they do, depending on the number of images stored, the storage method, and the competency of the webmaster, converting all the image files on a single large site could be a very time consuming ordeal.

Very few open source and free programs still have GIF write support. You can argue all you want (and I'm sure you will) that commercial programs are far more popular, but that simply isn't the case. With a huge proportion of programs being developed without GIF support, and huge open source backing for the PNG/MNG formats, there can be little argument that GIFs are on the way out and PNG/MNG are on their way to the top.
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#41507 - 16/08/03 01:40 AM Re: Image question
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
I'll tell you why. You are viewing popular as "being used by 20 websites" the PNG are viewing popular as "being supported by international organizations" The W3C endorses PNG and encourages people NOT to use GIF. The NIST (I believe it's the NIST) has adopted PNG as the official image standard, the US DoD (Department of Defense) has adopted PNG as an official standard, etc. You'll quickly find that most organizations that adopt standards for image formats have adopted PNG, rather than GIF. Again, you're viewing popularity as 20 sites, they view popularity as organizations that represent the opinions of millions.

And every image program recognizes and can manipulate gif? Really? Well GIMP, which is pretty much THE image editing program for Linux... it can't manipulate gif files. You assume just because the programs for Windows can manipulate a GIF that means all can. Also, many 3D rendering software programs can not save as a GIF (because GIF doesn't support enough colors), I could name maybe a dozen 3d programs that won't save as a gif. Just because the people want something doesn't mean they get it. I WANT a million dollars, I WANT a new car, I WANT a new house, I WANT a new job... well guess what? Just because I want that stuff doesn't mean I have it.

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#41508 - 16/08/03 04:25 AM Re: Image question
Watchdog Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2984
Loc: Hill End, NSW, Australia
the US DoD (Department of Defense) has adopted PNG as an official standard

Oh great, we can see some combat hardware in the latest and greatest imaging format.

Tell me something... Why have you and Starbucks brought up the Gimp v's Photoshop yarn when it's imaging we are (were) discussing. Perhaps it's one if your classic diversion tactics. The irrelevant thing here is one imaging programme being the bees knees, the fact I raised in respect of the popularity of GIF images is THEE entirely relevant issue. Sure, I only listed 20 sites but they represent a fair chunk of the world's page impressions which makes both the use and user-acceptance of GIF far far far far higher than that of PNG. For some reason you think I am bagging PNG - I'm not and have already said that at times I use it. But the facts speak for themselves, whatever site you visit the chances of a GIF image rather than PNG being displayed is enourmously high.

I am aware of the W3 endorsement of PNG, I refer to W3 when coding my own websites and recently finished one that complies strictly with XHTML1.1. Okay, that's no big deal - I'm just proving my awareness of the organisation itself. Having said that no standard is a standard until the specification becomes widely accepted in practice and with the representation of the humble PNG image on most websites, that is clearly not the case.

Now, if you want to keep spinning the yarn about freeware then visit their websites and see what imaging format they use, GIF isn't it? FreeBSD, Gimp, Linux.com, Apache, Samba, VNC, BitchX, Sendmail, SourceForge.net and OpenOffice... Yep, all of them.
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#41509 - 16/08/03 05:02 AM Re: Image question
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
Quote:
Oh great, we can see some combat hardware in the latest and greatest imaging format.

Yes, the DoD only makes hardware. Ever heard of a little project known as ARPANet? Maybe you're more familiar with its new name, it now goes by "The Internet"? That was created by an agency known as ARPA (now known as DARPA). Care to guess what the "D" stands for? Yeah, thats right "Defense" as in the DoD. Oh and please don't say "I just went to dod.mil it uses gif" because you'd be right, however thats just because the change hasn't taken effect yet.

Quote:
Tell me something... Why have you and Starbucks brought up the Gimp v's Photoshop yarn when it's imaging we are (were) discussing.


It's really obvious you are in politics... You have a way of turning bullsh*ting into an art. When did I turn it into a PS vs GIMP debate? When did I say "GIMP is the best program in the world?" When did I say "the fact that GIMP doesn't do it makes PS much better?" I DIDN'T. Why did I talk about GIMP?

Quote:
Because every imaging editor that I know of


You clearly know of GIMP. So you lied. Not all of the image editors you know of support GIF. So don't take my words, and try and turn it into a flamewar because I responded to something you said. Now anyway, since you had to be a wise-ass. You're right the GIMP website does use GIF. Oh wait, I guess you just went there and right clicked the logo right? Didn't take the time to read the "The current design of this site was created more than five years ago. It looked good at that time, but both the web and the GIMP have evolved since then?" Of course not. Because if you had, you would have seen the provided link to the new GIMP website http://mmmaybe.gimp.org/. Care to guess what image format that uses? Yup that's right, PNG. What's my point? Sure you can find open source sites using GIF, and most of them are probably using it illegally, however I can just as easily find many using PNG.

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#41510 - 16/08/03 06:13 AM Re: Image question
Raccoon Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 18/02/03
Posts: 2586
The main reason GIF superceeds PNG and JPG, is that it's so much easier to say!

GIF is pronounced simply Jiff, while JPG Jay·Pee·Gee and PNG Pee·En·Gee take considerably much more effort to pronounce, and sound down-right silly when used in verbal conversation.

Us geeks already have enough trouble trying to explain mIRC Em·Eye·Arr·See without sounding childish or demeaning, that some have even resorted to Merk.

I think if PNG just had a vowel in it, the format would be more readily embrassed by all.

- Raccoon
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#41511 - 16/08/03 06:46 AM Re: Image question
Watchdog Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2984
Loc: Hill End, NSW, Australia
It's really obvious you are in politics...

I'm an engineer (no... not a train driver, a proper engineer) so you arn't even close, as per your arguements re: PNG files when you know damn well that due to the format being eight years old, webmasters are being dragged kicking and screaming to use it.

On that note I have finished in this thread, I have better things to do such as eating a meal - damper, sheperds pie and a side-serve of roast veggies is only 5 mins away. Sorry if I have just made you hungry. :tongue:
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#41512 - 16/08/03 04:21 PM Re: Image question
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
It's fun to see how 1 litle Q can grow so big as this have smile but i must say the reading here is realy great, im not good with images and what they are used for so it's a bit of interesting reading.. thnx dudes smirk
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#41513 - 16/08/03 04:57 PM Re: Image question
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
Umm.... No? "JPG" is pronounced "jay peg" (the actual format is JPEG, not JPG), and "PNG" is pronounced "ping".

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#41514 - 16/08/03 05:01 PM Re: Image question
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
Ah so you're even a bigger liar? You've said numerous times on these forums that you are involved in AU politics... Guess I now know never to believe a word you say, since you make so much up, you can't even keep up with your lies.

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#41515 - 16/08/03 05:34 PM Re: Image question
ParaBrat Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 07/12/02
Posts: 3127
Loc: BratLand
Discussions here can be a great source of learning about all sorts of things. Now if only it could be done without including tossing insults around. <---- not so subtle hint to tone it down y'all.
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#41516 - 16/08/03 05:52 PM Re: Image question
starbucks_mafia Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2962
Loc: Norwich, UK
I can't see where I in any way mentioned GIMP or Photoshop. All I did was state a fact that open source software in general doesn't support writing GIF files and that it forms a substantial portion of the imaging market. I also gave a simple suggestion as to why there are still so many GIF files in use on the web - you seem to have ignored that part.

Raccoon: Maybe it's just me but I've always pronounced GIF with a hard 'G', (as in Kathy Lee Gifford).
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#41517 - 16/08/03 06:37 PM Re: Image question
Watchdog Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2984
Loc: Hill End, NSW, Australia
Since you called me a liar twice (..and it might do your standing here some good to take note of Parabrat's advice about mudslinging :tongue:) it requires yet again that I correct your inaccuracies. I have never ever once said that I was involved in politics anywhere, whether it be on this forum or any other. What I might have said is that I follow politics and that can mean a variety of things, all except participation of course. Watching parliamentary debates and watching "Question Time" is a spectator sport, not involvement.

Now I haven't muckraked you, kindly refrain from doing it to me. Or is it that I am the only one here that respect the opinions of others without the cheapshots?

Call me bigheaded if you will, but I feel that my integrity is well above that of a liar or a politician. wink

For the record and with respect to pronunciation I don't think there is a correct way to convert a file extension to a word. That said I say JIF, BITMAP, TIF (as in lovers tiff), JAYPEG and PEE EN GEE.

GIF is still the most popular image format on websites, both old and new though. You know it is and cannot prove otherwise.
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#41518 - 17/08/03 01:53 AM Re: Image question
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
With all due respect to Parabrat's post, I don't feel I am mudslinging at all. I'm simply quoting facts, for example you lied again. "On that note I have finished in this thread" and then *poof* you post to the thread yet again. If you want to say "PNG" is NOT pronounced "ping" then the answer is simple, you're wrong. http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/#history. That was written by the people who created the PNG format and they say it is pronounced "ping". Isn't it generally the right of the author to create the name for the creation? Therefore if the author says it's pronounced "ping" I don't care what you're opinion is; it is pronounced "ping". You deciding "PNG" is pronounced "pee en gee" is the same as me deciding "dog" is pronounced "do gee." Just because I say "well I say it like this" doesn't mean I'm right.

And you said you're not involved in politics? I guess I need to prove it to everyone, to show I'm not merely making things up, that I am quoting facts. http://forums.mirc.com/showflat.php?Cat=...=true#Post28787
A quote contained in that post: "I have [made press releases] actually because I was and still am a strong participant in the anti-republican push in Australia." Anti-republican push? Sure sounds like political involvement to me. So either that post was a lie when you said you were involved in politics, or this one is a lie when you said you aren't. So if Parabrat, or anyone else for that matter, wants to criticize me for what I say, well then I have to ask, why is it if I (or anyone else) makes fun of pheonix, MTech, etc., people say "He/She is right, you have proved yourself to be an idiot" and no one ever gets angry about it because there are facts to back it up. Well I've now provided 2 concrete examples of him lying, and then when confronted about the lies, he denys it all together. That sounds like someone who can be accurately deemed to be a liar.

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#41519 - 17/08/03 03:14 PM Re: Image question
Watchdog Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2984
Loc: Hill End, NSW, Australia
Since when is participating in a national debate on rebublicanism part of politics? Politics resides in a legislature and has nothing to do with constitutional matters. So I haven't lied to anyone here. Since you do not live in a dominion you would have absolutely no idea what I was even speaking about in the post you referred to, no idea at all. The fact that you referred to it and are confusing parliamentary debate and the process of law making with issues relating to the reigning monarch (who unlike in the American system of Government is NOT a political figure) proves what I said there and right here to be correct.

Sadly for you though, you will probably keep pushing this, yet another of your diversions, because you copped a mental thrashing re: GIF images. When you are proven wrong you always resort to personal conflict and diversion tactics, perhaps you are the political aspirant here?
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#41520 - 17/08/03 04:38 PM Re: Image question
Hammer Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 07/12/02
Posts: 1321
Loc: Georgia, USA
Which part of "Why can't we all get along?" are you having so much difficulty understanding? Please tell me and I'm quite sure I can increase your understanding of the concept.

No one really cares how you pronounce GIF/JPG/PNG, or how anyone else does, for that matter. Is your telling me I'm wrong going to alter how I pronounce GIF with a hard G (like many other people in the world), even though the folks that created it, like "choosy mothers", choose "Jif"? Not a chance. I think it's interesting to hear how others pronounce acronyms or file extensions, but I lose no sleep over it...nor do I bother telling they are wrong (it might very well be that my pronunciation is wrong). Some folks call .bmp files "bump files" while others are quite comfortable calling them "bitmapped files" or just "bitmaps."

Many people pronounce URL as "earl", other spell it out (I do). Khaled says "Em-Eye-Are-See"; I say "merk". Does he understand me when I call it "merk?" Every time. Linus Torvalds, the creator of linux, says "LEE-nooks"; most of the rest of the world uses "LIN-ux" or "LY-nux". Do we all understand each other? Fairly well, actually - as well as anyone can be understood by normal people when discussing something as complex and convoluted as flavors of UNIX and their close relations.

A lie is an intentional misrepresentation of what is known to be true by the speaker at the time the statement was made. An opinion cannot be a lie unless the speaker is deranged; that opinion may (or may not) be an uninformed one, the correction of which might (or might not) cause the speaker to alter their opinion.

You have been proven wrong in these forums before; you will be again. I have been proven wrong and will be again. That trend will continue. (That doesn't mean we were lying when we said what we did.) There is absolutely no reason to assign generic names to people, however much you might believe them to be true. Did I disagree with you when you were calling pheonix an idiot for the continous and consistently incorrect posts he was making? No, I agreed with you completely because those posts proved themselves; you were merely commenting on what was blatantly self-evident. However, I did not make the same deragatory comments you did because there is always the chance he might learn from his mistakes. Has pheonix improved? Yes, I believe he has dramatically improved recently.

I'm extremely tired of you and Watchdog (this applies to both of you, as well as to several others here) bickering with each other. I quite enjoy when you are both bringing meaningful content to any discussion. When it breaks down into mudslinging, muckraking and flamewars (and most especially when the thread gets dramatically off-topic to the detriment of the thread), it's time to cease it. Why do you think so many threads have had to be locked? Because often times the thread of the discussion has deteriorated into petty self-aggrandizement to the point that the thread is no longer helping anyone, which IS why we are here, after all.

Please continue to provide the wonderful content and lose the derogatory attitudes that have been tarnishing the posts. I very much dislike editing someone else's post because my editing can often change the original intent of the author, but I can, have and will do so again. Further such posts will be edited or deleted as they are found by a moderator. Continued abuse and flagrant disregard of netiquette will be treated accordingly.
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#41521 - 17/08/03 06:05 PM Re: Image question
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
Quote:
Which part of "Why can't we all get along?" are you having so much difficulty understanding? Please tell me and I'm quite sure I can increase your understanding of the concept.


I completely understand it. I also realize that it is a ficticious idealism. Therefore I would rather not waste my time doing something that I know can not be done.

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