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Re: Clickable links #39212 02/08/03 05:59 PM
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No need anymore for overpriced Windows software that most average users could never afford

I suppose the owners of 90% of the computers in the world use pirated operating systems then.

As for your last comment, "winning" and losing is irrelevant here. You stated you wanted a feature, I explained why it's not desirable in great detail. If that's flaming then I am guilty as sin. People have been asking for this for longer than the 2 1/2 years or so that I have been a member of this forum and myself and other users have given the same answer that you have got each and every single time.

To be honest though, in my view I see no difference beteen a clickable link in MIRC and a clickable links on the Web.

There's no difference at all, aside from the fact that the entire web supports hidden links and all of IRC does not. The fact that there's no difference doesn't make the implementation of something desirable. There's quite enough unmanagable lame behaviour on IRC without having another gadget to support it, in this case the possibility of unsolicited advertising and the spread of virii and trojans. The fact that this is possible on a website is all the more reason why mIRC and IRC in general should not support it.

American's aren't the only ones in this world (despite recent impressions) who are entitled to an opinion.

Well, we agree on something, and considering I am not American I have every reason to. grin


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Re: Clickable links #39213 02/08/03 06:05 PM
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Quote:

As for mentioning politics, as I said I never brought it up, but what I object to is people who try to stifle dissent, wherever it might come from (even if it doesn't come from your shores). American's aren't the only ones in this world (despite recent impressions) who are entitled to an opinion.

There is a difference between saying, "I think George Bush's economic plan will fail because of REASON 1, and REASON 2" and saying, basically, "George Bush is an illegitimate president who was never really elected". If he would have said the former, I might have disagreed with him, however I would not have gotten angry about it. But he did not say the former, he said the latter, which is not based on fact, and it stated only to start an argument. Dissent is good, thats how changes come about. Dissent is how the civil rights and racial equality movements began. However there is a difference between dissent and out right insults made only to provoke arguments.

Re: Clickable links #39214 02/08/03 06:37 PM
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Again, as I said we can only take our respective positions on this. Personally I think its perfectly possible to learn what is and is not sensible behaviour when I see a link, just as I have done on the Web over these last 10 years.

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I suppose the owners of 90% of the computers in the world use pirated operating systems then.


If you don't mind me asking, what has that got to do with the price of beans? That guy practically accused me of being a criminal, just because I said clickable links might be a good idea. All I did was correct his erroneous assumption. As you have highlighted, that's a bit like calling everyone who uses the internet a criminal. It is at the very least, way over the top.

In any case there is a lot of Windows software that is beyond the price range of many users - and whether you agree or not, I still think most of it is over priced.

Ultimately as I said these kinds of debates solve nothing, it is clear what your position is - and I am unlikely to change mine either. If users want to commit suicide by jumping into a 'black hole' ( quite overdramatic language in my view) without being fully aware of the concequences of what their doing, that should be completely up to them.

With regard to 'flaming', this thread certainly has a very acrid flaming tone to it, whether this was the intention or not, that is what has happend. You would have to be quite brain dead not to feel the hostility I have experienced here.

It is not impossible that this subject could have been discussed on a much calmer, much more logical basis, rather than bringing God, morality, America, the Gulf war, the DCMA and Lord knows what else into the equation.

If I knew such a simple suggestion, and one that would have very little impact on me anyway (since I am currently a very infrequent user of IRC) would cause so much open hostility I would never have made it.

Just calm down guys. It probably won't ever get implimented anyway, so I don't have a clue what you're all shouting about. It's just an idea. Maybe someone might see it and like it. In a free world that's totally up to them.

Q

Re: Clickable links #39215 02/08/03 06:47 PM
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Quote:
There is a difference between saying, "I think George Bush's economic plan will fail because of REASON 1, and REASON 2" and saying, basically, "George Bush is an illegitimate president who was never really elected". If he would have said the former, I might have disagreed with him, however I would not have gotten angry about it. But he did not say the former, he said the latter, which is not based on fact, and it stated only to start an argument. Dissent is good, thats how changes come about. Dissent is how the civil rights and racial equality movements began. However there is a difference between dissent and out right insults made only to provoke arguments.


Yeah but... that's not the point. People can still say what they want, whether you like it or not. The guy isn't psychic, so how is he supposed to know what you would like to hear, or indeed even care for that matter?

You can't shut people up, just because you think you can shout louder.

Sorry about that, but there really isn't an awful lot you can or should be allowed able to do about it. Dictatorship sure aint for me...

Q

Re: Clickable links #39216 02/08/03 07:03 PM
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Dissent just means that one disagrees with what someone else has done or said. It doesn't mean to flame and it's got nothing to do with freedom of speech or a lack there-of. My original post consisted of 100% constructive criticism and nothing else, so in a sense, that is a motion of dissent against the suggestion.

By the way, your last post should have been aimed at codemastr so I claim to have been misrepresented.


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Re: Clickable links #39217 02/08/03 07:27 PM
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General Reply to all:

-Everyone is free to make a suggestion, however to expect that only replies supporting it will be made wouldnt make much sense. A feature suggestion may be made with one intent from the poster, but general views on other issues surrounding that suggestion and other effects it could have do have merit. To say a feature could lead to blahblah by someone isnt a personal insult to whoever posted it. Just because someone doesnt like a reply, or points out bad aspects of it, there's no need to take it personally and take your rubber duckie and go home.

-Personally i try to give everyone a good bit of leeway in their posts. When i see someone tossing in a political slur, i shake my head wondering why they think that has any remote support to their arguement. I toss it into the same bin that the "i love windows, i hate *nix" "anyone who uses blahblah is silly, use blahblah" "why do you use slang" into. Everyone has opinions, some just dont realize there is a time and place to air them. Now, if someone started a thread "Why i hate <insert politician/country name here> i would delete it as being inappropriate for this forum. Do i like that some ppl use every remote excuse to climb up on their soapbox about a politician/country/etc diatribe? No, and i find it annoying and a waste of time. Tells me a lot about the poster's intent and how much credence to give their replies tho.

-i dont care about what country ignores or approves of filesharing music/movies/software, or the multitude of reasons why any given person thinks its just peachy. Illegal file sharing is not supported or encouraged on this forum. End of discussion.

-Yes, ppl can get into just as much trouble clicking on urls on their browser or email as on IRC. But if by popping up msgs informing them of the risks or warning them in channels or here, or limiting some features, we can stop a few, its worth it and will hopefully make them carry the warnings over to their email and browser wanderings. To think why bother cause they can get into trouble using other things isnt much of a helping attitude.

-When ppl cant stay on focus and the thread winds down into bickering, flames, or irrelevant arguements without any redeeming value, that thread will be closed. If anyone wants to consider that censorship, too bad.


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Re: Clickable links #39218 02/08/03 07:27 PM
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Quote:
By the way, your last post should have been aimed at codemastr so I claim to have been misrepresented.


Lol, possibly it was - and possibly you're making the assumption everything I say is aimed at you. It probably isn't.

As for dissent, dissent comes in many forms - and disagreement between individuals is one of these. Others will actively go out and protest to voice their dissent, while others may even go as far as breaking what they view as unjust laws in order to express their views. I guess so long as we can all agree that dissent is a good thing - and you shouln't try to prevent it (each to their own etc.) then I think maybe we can make some progress here.

Well anyway, its all getting way too out of hand if you ask me. From talking about being able to click on a simple link, to discussing civil rights, it all seems a bit extreme.

So what now? Anyone got anything esle to add? Do you still want to argue? Or do you want to do the sensible thing and finally leave it alone?

I'd rather get back to my nice quet life rather than have to argue in detail with people I've never met before and don't altogether find particularly pleasant about the morality of the web and all of its (percieved) inherrant ills.

I wonder if in 20 years we will still be having these arguments, or if people will have finally accepted by then that the web is a reality?

We shall see I guess.

Q

Last edited by raid517; 02/08/03 07:33 PM.
Re: Clickable links #39219 02/08/03 07:34 PM
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Dissent has nothing to do with breaking laws, breaking laws is called disobedience.


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Re: Clickable links #39220 02/08/03 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Everyone is free to make a suggestion, however to expect that only replies supporting it will be made wouldnt make much sense. A feature suggestion may be made with one intent from the poster, but general views on other issues surrounding that suggestion and other effects it could have do have merit. To say a feature could lead to blahblah by someone isnt a personal insult to whoever posted it. Just because someone doesnt like a reply, or points out bad aspects of it, there's no need to take it personally and take your rubber duckie and go home.


Mmm... well that's kind of an example of what I said. Don't you think there's anything at all negative in the tone of what you just said? My 'rubber duckie' as you put it is still very much in the water. And if people still want to agrue, I'm not in any hurry to leave. People implying I have criminal intentions in making a suggesion, or going on about morality, or their love of their President, or their loathing of him, or the Gulf war, or whether or not Evis faked his own death etc. are not all that helpful. Constructive cristicism is best when it's technical, and while there has been some of that, there has also been a lot of moralising and apparently contadicting statements too.

I can take the technical stuff, even though I think it could easily be listed as an advanced feature with all the appropriate warnings etc, but when people start making me out to be a hardend criminal for making the suggestion, that's where I daw the line.

We can agree to disgree on the technical stuff. But all this moral BS has nothing to do with me. So please leave me out of it.

Criminals (if that is what you like to call file traders) will find all sorts of ways to induge their interests. If you imagine that hyperlinking will one way or another help or disuade them, you are undoubtedly and very sadly mistaken. For legitamate users however, it would still be a nice feature - although certainly not one that warrants this much debate.

If it doesn't ever really get implimented, I doubt I will ever really care. It was just a suggestion. No one says you have to like it.

Q

Re: Clickable links #39221 02/08/03 07:57 PM
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Ahhh for Christ's sake: NO-ONE CALLED YOU A CRIM, get that into your head. Go back and read Parabrat's response to all this. If you can't understand that then there's seriously no hope.


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Re: Clickable links #39222 02/08/03 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Dissent has nothing to do with breaking laws, breaking laws is called disobedience.


Well that's a patently nonsensical statement. So people who indulge in 'civil disobenence' are not practicing dissent? During the 80's in the UK, we had an unjust tax called the Poll Tax, many refused to pay it - and thereby broke the law. On one occasion many thousands of people marched to London and engaged in what can only be desribed as a 'popular uprising' (others called it a riot). Less than a month later the law imposing the tax was revoked.

This was just one example of many I can think of where breaking the law as a means of popular dissent, proved to ultimately be effective. You of course (if you live in America) will recall your own instances of this. Indeed if breaking the law as a means of poplular disent hadn't taken place at many points throughout your history, America would be a very different and far more unpleasant place than it is today.

From my own experience of my time on this earth, breaking the law may be the only effective means of dissent that some people have. You can say its wrong all you want, but ultimately it is everyone who benefits from the risks these people take on our behalf.

Q

Re: Clickable links #39223 02/08/03 08:12 PM
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Ahhh for Christ's sake: NO-ONE CALLED YOU A CRIM, get that into your head. Go back and read Parabrat's response to all this. If you can't understand that then there's seriously no hope.


Well that is the impression I got. But then I'm exagerating just as much as you folks are exagerating about how an idea like this would serve only to facilitate criminals. Annoying isn't it?

I understoood the post well enough. At least it was mostly reasonable. But all the same I don't think asking folks to calm down and take a breath is all that bad an idea.

So you think the idea stinks? Well what the hey. Who cares?

Q

Re: Clickable links #39224 03/08/03 11:50 AM
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Dissent means exactly what I said it meant, look up the term in the dictionary and it will say something like this. Dissent is an official function at any meeting or parliamentary sitting whereby those who make up a quorum can move against the decision made by a chairman or speaker respectively. Such acts are normally done peacefully and can make up part of the debate conducted at the time. As such, you can move dissent without breaking any laws and without seeking to insult people or accuse them of any wrong-doing. The issues relating to the British Poll Tax is entirely different. People showed dissent, sure, but that has nothing to do with the actual acts of tax evasion (a crime) or inciting riots (another crime).


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Re: Clickable links #39225 03/08/03 12:45 PM
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Again we must agree to differ - although I'm afraid from my perspective this is turning into nothing much more than a pissing contest.

A lot of 'laws' were broken in the civil rights movement in America in the 60's. If you want to call those acts of civil disobediance crimes too, well technically you might be right, but thank god for those 'criminals' and the risks they were prepared to take.

Similarly you mention the British Poll Tax. Well crime or not, a mass movement of civil disobediance - and a virtual public up rising - overturned what was undoubtedly an unjust tax. Did people break the law by refusing to pay the tax and by going to jail for it? Certainly. Was the end result worthwhile, despite whatever the law of the day might have been? Yes, unarguably is was. Indeed throughout the world people are 'breaking the law' in order to struggle for their basic human rights and freedoms. It is somewhat of a cliche to point out to you that not all laws currently on the statute books are inherantly just. Sometimes in a stuggle for genuine justice, breaking the law may be the only option.

If I were you I would read your history books. History is litterd with people who 'broke the law' - and as a result eventually chaged the world for the better for everyone.

It is not always wise in this respect to side solely with the legislators. They do not always win.

Q

Re: Clickable links #39226 03/08/03 01:08 PM
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And what has your argument over whether a law is worth breaking or not got to do with the meaning of dissent? Aside from straying wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off the issue of why your suggestion cannot be implemented you can't even stay on track with your own digression which was started by you just to make you look right.

Returning to the thrust of this thread, you are taking constructive criticism too personally, as Parabrat has indicated. There are several security related reasons why this function has never been included in the two years (or longer) that people have been asking for it.

In giving those reasons, no-one has called you a criminal, no-one has accused you of breaking any laws and no-one has seen to insult or flame your suggestion. Anyone who has disagreed with your idea has explained why in explicit detail.


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Re: Clickable links #39227 03/08/03 01:52 PM
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Dude there have been a lot of negative things said here too. In that last post you at least came as close as anyone ever has to just giving a straight out technical answer. (Although I'm sure I can live without the explicit detail. Just the bottom line is good enough for me).

As for digression; cripes it wasn't me who started all this BS. I don't know what half the people here were ranting on about. God, politics, the DCMA, the possiblity of the existance of life on other planets - I mean none of that had any relevance to the suggestion I made.

Ayway, if you can't figure out the relationship between dissent and how effective dissent may sometimes require you to break the law, I won't try to explain it to you. Maybe if you think about it a little you might eventually work it out.

But as you said, that is all pretty much irrelevant. You don't like the idea. Fair enough, I don't really care. There isn't much point carrying on this 'debate' from what I can see anyway (even though you picked it up again, some time after I had just about forgotten it). This whole thing genuinely isn't very important to me. In this last year I think I may have used MIRC about 4 times - and on each occasion for no more than an hour or so. I'm not a big fan of IRC, nor am I a big fan of a lot of the people I have met there. They are not on the whole the friendliest group of people you could ever hope to encounter. It was just a suggestion. One that might encourage me to use IRC more. But overall it's not something I'm desperate to see. Now if you want to keep arguning about it feel free. But I don't think it will achieve anything.

It's your call.

Anyway later... (Then again, hopefully never...)

Q

Re: Clickable links #39228 03/08/03 01:54 PM
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You don't like the idea.

It's not a matter of whether I like it or not. No-one would care much about that. It is an inappropriate function to add to mIRC, that is my only belief at this time.


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Re: Clickable links #39229 03/08/03 01:59 PM
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Yeah dude I think you said that 50 times and in 50 different ways already. Its just getting boring now.

Q

Re: Clickable links #39230 03/08/03 02:02 PM
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And it's still not sinking in? Don't blame me for that or for the fact that you seem to enjoy inventing new meanings for words, or for the fact that you keep posting every time you say you won't any longer or for the fact that you seem to think that the rest of the world holds a grudge against you.


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Re: Clickable links #39231 03/08/03 02:20 PM
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Aww shut up will ya, this really is getting boring now. Sure I took in what was said. But in care I haven't made it explicitly clear to you I don't care.

Nor am I 'reinventing the meaning of words', its just that your brain seems too inflexible to accept anything more than the rigid definitions you read in dictionaries. Dissent means many things to many people, try telling them their perspective isn't valid either. Personally I'm glad people break unjust laws, because its people like me and like you who benefit from it.

Anyway as I've said before what has this got to do with anything? It looks to me you just want to keep fighting over nothing. Faird enough. But I suggest you go take it out on someone who actually gives a damn, because I don't.

I liked you better (though barely) when you were speaking about your purely technical objections. It would have been nice if we could have stuck with that all along.

Q

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