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Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37770 22/07/03 08:56 PM
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Watchdog Offline
Hoopy frood
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Yep, it's a bet lol.

Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37771 22/07/03 10:58 PM
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The_Game Offline
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Personally my opinion on this matter is that I highly doubt that this "proposed law" will pass due to the severe harshness of the penalty. Users would have to pay up to $250,000 in fines and could spend up to 5 years in prison...and this includes users getting caught even if they never downloaded before and tried once.

Although I don't recommend filesharing since I learned my lesson a long time ago, I honestly think that a penalty of that magnitude, unless they changed it, is too severe of a punishment and unless they have over 10 million jail cells ready, people are going to still share and if one way of doing it gets shut down there will be more ways popping up at the same time. It is going to be a continuous cycle.

If the penalty is of monetary value, and pressed for the full amount people would have a hard time paying that off if not at all due to other important bills, i.e. house payments/mortgages, car payments, loans, basic utilities, miscellaneous bills. I don't see it happening. I recently caught a news program here, and our senator John McCain stated that he would not be "for" a law that has a severe penalty for filesharers. He went on to state that nobody should be able to regulate the internet because it is a waste of tax dollars. And unless the filesharers are making money off of it he has no problem. I kinda agree

Like I said I am not one to condone filesharing, but I also think that these other companies wanting to capitalize on "joe user" for their actions would be fair either. My only guess is if a bill like this should pass the penalties would be more lenient. So basically in short, I doubt this proposed law will fly. BUT, mIRC users should be well aware of this proposed law in case it passes because nobody is an exception to this law.

Now that I've said my two cents, I am going to go ahead and say that I am done with this thread ( Because I don't want to be yelled at by the moderators )

The_Game bribes Parabrat with a wheelbarrow load of PB cookies.... grin

EDIT: I don't think the RIAA has no right to destroy computers for one simple reason, if some little kid uses mommy and daddy's "Family Computer" to download something and they get their computer destroyed because of it. Because alot of familys I know of use their computer for configuring/paying bills and online schooling. Also, if they are going to punish people for filesharing they may as well go after anyone who has ever bought a blank tape, cd, or vhs to record their movies or songs off their libraries, or the radio.

Basically if someone gets their pc destroyed, they can and will purchase a new one. Like I said I don't think its going to fly...but thats just my opinion.. But I think the RIAA should be held accountable for the wrongful destruction of someone's pc.

But I will more than likely read what else is posted....Thanks for hearing me out.

Last edited by The_Game; 22/07/03 11:26 PM.
Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37772 22/07/03 11:10 PM
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codemastr Offline
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I guess you haven't seen the new proposed bill? The one supported by Sen. Hatch. In addition to fines and jail time, the RIAA will be given the legal authority to destroy the PC of anyone it suspects of filesharing. Note the keyword is suspect, that means there is no trial, there is no warrant issued, no court order, the RIAA can simply do it if they believe you are trading files. Think thats bad? Well wait till you hear the next part of the bill! If the RIAA mistakenly destroys the computer of someone who was NOT illegally trading files, the RIAA is in NO way responsible for any damages, that includes loss of files, loss of wages, or anything. In essence, the bill proposes that the RIAA become our supreme law enforcement agency with absolutely no government oversight whatsoever. Yup thats right, millions of our tax dollars are being wasted debating this utterly stupid bill while at the same time unemployment is high, people are living on the streets, families are starving to death... but lets make sure the RIAA has the power to destroy the PCs of people they believe are sharing mp3s!

Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37773 23/07/03 03:16 AM
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Well, the idea behind that stipulation, is the RIAA wishes to deploy malicious worms on file trading networks at an alarming rate. This includes shutting down sites, but rather than having them shut down they keep them running and lace all the files with viruses. New sites will pop up boasting new distros of open-source P2P software that have been virus laced. New P2P software may even crop up that allows the RIAA complete control over your PC and you wouldn't even suspect the RIAA was behind it.

It's this sort of game plan, and the obvious paranoia that goes with it, that the RIAA is hoping for. Increased paranoia means decreased file trading. Suddenly your Safe Sources are becoming tainted, and now nothing's safe and everyone is confused and not sure what to believe.

Imagine another Hacker Crackdown, but this time for Warez. Just know who your friends are if this does go through.

- Raccoon


Well. At least I won lunch.
Good philosophy, see good in bad, I like!
Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37774 23/07/03 04:22 AM
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I agree with you. I am also definitely sure of one thing, I know for a fact that such a law could not even get proposed here, let alone voted in. The idea that a private enterprise can be permitted to destroy computers belonging to someone else is something that couldn't fit in with our legal landscape. The government could probably get away with it but private enterprise?... never. I think it would be quite dangerous to see any private enterprise given such authority, regardless of the reason why.

Imagine the worst case scenario... The RIAA has some other company stepping on their toes. The RIAA decides that these people are trading music online without the required licence, permit, royalty payments or whatever. The RIAA goes to court and says "My Lord, these people are costing us money!" The Judge then says, "well the law says I can give you the power to get some fast guns and storm their premise and take what you like." Result, one company gone broke and perhaps alot of damaged equipment.

Now the other thing is that the proposal only applies to the US. That covers around 280 million people. Going by the estimate number of people that are alleged to be trading files here in AU, 3.6 million from a population of 19 million, there would be around 60 million in the US who indulge in filetrading. (correct my average if it's wrong by all means, maths is not my strong point). That is 60 million out of a population of about 5.5 billion in the world which by the same average means that just under a billion people are filetrading. The average would probably be far less, maybe 500 million due to the fact that most countries don't have the internet to any substancial degree.

Even so, the RIAA's target audience is rather small by comparison with the big picture. For pircay to be effective and fair laws like this would have to be enforced by governments which means that all industrialised nations would need to do something simultaneously. I'm not necessarily against confiscation of computers, as down here we are accustomed to having cars confiscated if we are seen by the police doing burnouts (laying rubber, so to say), what I would object to is having my machine(s) confiscated and destroyed by a commercial enterprise that seems hell bent on retribution over justice.

Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37775 23/07/03 08:27 PM
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ParaBrat Offline
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*chomps pbcookies, thwaps TheGame just cause*
I was hoping we wouldnt end up getting into this here, but i suppose it was ineveitable. Now i can only hope y'all keep it within reasonable limits :tongue:

Just to clarify, aside from "proposed" legislation, the 1998 DMCA IS law, the recent appeals were by a provider trying to not have to comply with handing over the info. That appeal was overturned, so the RIAA can and is getting subpoenas (to large and small providers and universities) requesting the info and as it stands now, the providers have to hand it over. Some of those subpoenas involve ppl with as few as 5 "representative recordings". US copyright laws allow for damages of $750 to $150,000 for each song. The RIAA has said however, that they would "be open to settlement proposals from defendants". As for proposed legislation, one would hope the elected officials have some sense and dont give any one industry power they wouldnt give the guy running a mom & pop corner store or who lives next door. If you think proposed legislation is unreasonable, complaining about it here wont change anything, write or call your elected officials and tell them so.

Playing devil's advocate, if the penalties arent severe, where's the incentive to not do it (other than cause stealing is wrong, which obviously carries little wieght) ? Joe User says thffpppt, so they will slap me on the wrist, big deal. I'm sorry, but if we say its ok to do illegal filsharing, whats next? To say ignore stealing if its on the internet sets a bad precedent. Say to kids, "well, its ok to steal music and movies cause its on the net, but dont steal from someone you can see. Oh wait, so is identity stealing...well, hrm, we didnt mean THAT was ok. Lets see, well some kinds of stealing are ok, others arent." No, i doubt parents will be at all happy when they are nailed for huge fines for what their offspring have been up to, nor will Joe User who didnt want to shell out money for a cd he felt he just couldnt live without and now has to figure out how to pay the fines. Walking into Walmart and stealing a cd/movie/game isnt any different from stealing it online. Steal 20, you pay a higher price. Steal 200 from the truck delivering them and you pay a higher price. Walmart has the right to expect to be able to prosecute, so should anyone who is stolen from by any means. Bottom line, you do the crime, you have to expect to pay a penalty. You dont want to pay the penalty, then dont do it. I was raised that if you couldnt afford it, you did without it until you could. Can all the illegal filesharers live without having a puter full of movies/music/games? um, yeah, i think their lives would still be worth living. The industries shrugged it off when it was an occasional file sent between friends, thinking it was a pretty good way to get ppl to go out and buy a cd. Joe sends Susie a tune done by someone new, Susie likes it and goes out to get the cd. Then greed reared its ugly head and it has gotten so extreme its hard to blame them for saying enuf is enuf.

I've read various things about RIAA and movie industry spitting out worms, from destroying puters to basically sending out a file that ends up containing not the song/movie, but a neeeener and warning. Obviously destroying a puter is WAY over the line. I cant condone anything that extreme. We all know ppl who have gotten infected due to filesharing and clicking on urls to find what they want, so they know the risk is there, but i'd hate to see any industry joining that little party.

While i can sympathize with the music, movie, software industries and understand they are in business, employing a lot of ppl, and dont want their products stolen, i'd not like to see extreme reactions/laws to it. Any penalty has to be severe enuf to be effective and has to suit the crime.

I know there are ppl who have stopped filesharing due to all the publicity and knowing the risk of getting caught now, so i'd say its had some effect. Wasnt that the point, after all?



ParaBrat @#mIRCAide DALnet
Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37776 23/07/03 08:46 PM
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codemastr Offline
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I agree illegal filesharing should be stopped, but the RIAA wants to go much further than that. For example, I have CDs (which I legally purchased) that I have made copies for, for my own personal use. For example, I have mp3s of those CDs on my PC, a burned copy in my car, and the original copy by my stereo system. According to the RIAA, I should be required to buy three copies of those CDs, not be able to make copies myself. This same issue came about in the 1980s with the invention of the VCR, but then the courts were smart enough to rule on "fair use." Meaning, if I'm making a copy of something I legally purchased, am the legal owner of, and am making a copy for personal use with no financial gain to myself or others, then I can fairly use the copied video tape. Unfortunately, with CDs, the RIAA seems to think this ruling should not apply. Most people don't realize the reason CDs exist. It wasn't because of their superior quality, it was because at the time, the music industry felt technology that could allow them to be copied was impossible. Unfortunately, soon after the release of CDs, cassette players were made that could copy from a CD and not too long after came the first CD-Rs. While the music industry likes to make it look like they do things for the good of everyone, what they are really doing is just trying to make more money for themselves. Oh and if you notice, the new thing is audio DVD which makes copying music even harder because of the encoding techniques, and copying the DVDs, even for personal use is a violation of the DMCA. So basically what they've done is taken the concept of fair use, which has existed since the first copyrights were issued hundreds of years ago, and decided that music should be the exception to this rule. I guess what I'm getting at is, the standard motto is "they don't care about us, why should we care about them?" Not necessarily saying that idea is correct, but it is certainly one that is hard to break.

As for the punishments, I agree they should be harsh, but lets be realistic. Doesn't it seem foolish that murderers and rapists get less prison time than is being proposed for filesharing? I don't know, but in my mind you can't compare stealing 5 billion songs to ending 1 human life. Yet that is what the RIAA seems to think is the logical way the legal system should be setup.

Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37777 23/07/03 09:40 PM
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Just a followup on the idea that lawsuit != law. The subpoenas issued to students at MIT and Boston University will NOT be enforced. Both schools are fighting the subpoenas in court saying that the violate the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act. Like I said, you can find a judge that will side with teh RIAA, and you can find judges that will go against them. Until a law is actually passed, I really wouldn't worry about it.

Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37778 23/07/03 10:58 PM
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I AGREED some of the proposals and attitudes were extreme.
I AGREED penalties should be appropriate to the crime.

I hope you are on a debate team considering how often you argue just for the sake of arguing. I also hope you send off a bunch of emails/snailmails stating your views to RIAA and elected officials.

And personally, i hope a lot of ppl DO worry about it now since that would cut down on illegal filesharing and the probs it causes.

<end of brat's participation in this discussion>



ParaBrat @#mIRCAide DALnet
Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37779 24/07/03 02:57 PM
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Yes I was on a debate team, and yes I do write to my congressmen, almost on a weekly basis. And what I was saying about "not worrying about it" wasn't don't worry about getting caught, what I meant was people shouldn't worry about the IP logging issue because, most likely, that law isn't ever gonna happen.

Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37780 24/07/03 07:04 PM
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good for you! and sorry for misunderstanding your intent.


ParaBrat @#mIRCAide DALnet
Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37781 24/07/03 07:54 PM
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Of all the problems facing the world; such as a president no one actually elected [who insists on wars many people don't want] and starving children; filesharing seems fairly low down on the ladder. But, yet again, the world gets its prioritys wrong frown

I thought I was special - that if I set my mind to do something of course I could do it. BAH! That was a sham! *wanders off into a world he was not brought up to deal with*

Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37782 24/07/03 09:29 PM
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How about we don't turn this into an "I hate bush" thread? I DID vote for bush, I DO support the wars, so how about you don't take your views and generalize them to all Americans, ok?

Re: will Mirc start loging ip's #37783 24/07/03 11:15 PM
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It's okay, he doesn't like Howard either. But he's also too young to understand politics. Losing the Grand Prix to Melbourne had a terrible affect on the crow eaters so all you can do is sympathise. grin

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