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#37614 - 21/07/03 06:28 AM *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
neophyte Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 426
Loc: Australia
This might have been previously suggested, however, my search didn't yield any result that could confirm this.


A minor addition, yet a great improvement to the ial, would be something along the lines of a statement that allowed the user to search for the following: IRCOp, Gone, Here, Voice, HalfOP and Op.

Ie, $ial(*!*@*.com,0,[*+%@gh])

Where * = ircop; + = voice; % = halfop; @ = op; g = gone; h = here

The same could be applied to $ialchan.

Not only could one use just one of those symbols, but an entire combination of them. For example:

$ial(*!*@*.tokyo.*,0,[%g]) would freturn the total of all those that have an address matching the mask *!*@*.tokyo.* that are halfoped and gone (away).

Using the further example:

$ial(*!*@*.tokyo.*,0,[%g]).nicks would return all the nicks matching that mask in a one line statement.

ie, nick1 nick2 nick3.

Then you could use an $gettok statement to sort it into whatever manner you wished (just using the space as the seperating character).

The same could be applied for the .userid function of the ial.
$ial(*!*@*.tokyo.*,0,[%g]).userids would return all userid's matching the above statement.

The use of the bracketed statement within the $ial request is so that a combination of sorts could be used.

This would be a rather nifty addition (imho).
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#37615 - 21/07/03 08:41 AM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
Raccoon Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 18/02/03
Posts: 2506
The problem with this, is it gives even more encouragement for people to /who #channels as they join them... adding to more useless server load.

With your suggestions of adding Here/Gone, it now encourages people to /who #channel every 30 seconds (MY GOD!). Except most people dont realize that Here/Gone doesn't even work properly, and never will, because servers don't transmit /away status between servers. It will only display accurate H/G for local users.

I don't see any use for Op/Hop/Voice modes stored in the IAL, as these are already stored in the channel's Nicklist with the $nick command and isop/isvo/ishelp.

And IRC ops really don't want to be bothered, especially by people who download and use pre-fabricated scripts. The more difficult this is to script, the better for everyone.

- Raccoon
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#37616 - 21/07/03 10:40 AM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
neophyte Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 426
Loc: Australia
Yes, and how would that be different from now?


As it is, you still need to do a /who on a channel (every so often) if you even want to get some semblance of anywhere near accurate ial results.


All in all, this just simply makes it easier to grab info from the IAL.

Whether or not the user chooses to do a /who is another thing.

And as it stands, they could be doing a /who in a channel every 30sec or so without this addition.

Of course, the other alternative is to be really hardcore, and make something like this up in your own methodology and scriptology, but how many of us really truly want to do so?
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#37617 - 21/07/03 12:51 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
Raccoon Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 18/02/03
Posts: 2506
If someone found it necessary to manually access the addresses of users who have sat idly in the channel not triggering any join/text/mode/etc events... then yes, they would have to either /who that person or simply /who the #channel. Once.

There is NEVER.. EVER.. A reason to /WHO a channel more than once since you last joined it. After you /who a channel, your IAL becomes completely populated and stays that way. New people who join are immediately added and those who leave are removed accordingly.

The only reason someone would periodically /who anyone in 30 second intervals, is if they were obsessed with their Here/Gone status, or paranoid that they may have become an oper since they last checked (OMG! AN OPER!). As I explained earlier, Here/Gone isn't even useful unless everyone shares the same server.

This is extremely wasteful behavior, and more servers need to follow suit and crack down on people whose scripts issue such commands. I can understand if you are an OP in a channel and have been assigned anti-clone duty, where you might need to /who the channel (again only ONE time is necessary and effective), but most users simply do not need this information to be successful in a channel. 99% of the time, this information is discarded, yet lame scripts still carry on querying for it.

- Rantcoon
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#37618 - 21/07/03 12:51 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
lammkott Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Australia
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the IAL only stored nicknames and addresses, not the user's status (@%+, H/G, etc.), so how exactly would this work without actually having to /who the user every time you used $ial(blah!*@*,1,[@%+HG])?
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#37619 - 21/07/03 12:54 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
Raccoon Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 18/02/03
Posts: 2506
It wouldn't.

The implimentation of this suggestion would lead to the unwarrented Mass-Whoing of WhoVille.

-Grinchcoon
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#37620 - 21/07/03 01:06 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
Watchdog Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2984
Loc: Hill End, NSW, Australia
Finding who is here or gone across servers would be specific to IRCd's as it works where I am. And I agree with you on un-necessary whoing of users and channels. All resource-hungry scripts should be deleted in my view, regardless of the intended function.
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#37621 - 21/07/03 03:41 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
Also lets not forget that mIRC adds users to teh IAL on /whois and /userhost as well, and that information is not necessarily available with those commands. Plus the "%" idea, well % has different meanings on different servers. On halfops supporting servers, % usually means 'is a halfop' but on DALnet for example, if you're an IRCOp and an % shows in the /who it means 'is invisible (+i)'

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#37622 - 21/07/03 10:55 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
_D3m0n_ Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 1527
Loc: Florida,USA
actually i think your Here Gone transmittal is alil biased ... because on the net im on it is infact transmitted between servers on the network..... i wrote a custom nicklist and was able to pull H and G info in a /who from anytone in the room and they were on diferent servers and it did work properly ...... i tossed the script as it was just too much to use on a large channel ....... really they best way to add this type of support would be to have IRCD developers add something internally to allow for this info to be pulled from all users without haveing to /who the entire channel ..... it would certainly cut down on the server load of ppl /who the chanel all the time
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#37623 - 21/07/03 11:00 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
Well for here/away I could see it being useful, but honestly I don't want to implement an "ISOPER" command, all this will do is lead to problems.

if (!isoper $nick) { .msg $nick Hey check out my website http://... }

It would make an easy way to make sure spam is never sent to IRCops.

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#37624 - 21/07/03 11:07 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
_D3m0n_ Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 1527
Loc: Florida,USA
actually i do agree isoper is a terrible implementation in my opinion as well. but as i said above i made my custom nicklist to display a coffee cup for all away users/ i /who the channel on time ..... then on each join part quits what have u i added or removed that nick to or from the list ....... on nickchanges i /who the nick not the chan to see if they have gone away ...... its still was toom much to bear on larger chennels so i ditched the idea for interim and ended up using the nicklust dll thing instead ...... which isnt even half as useful as what my script was to me. all in all i really would like to see some way of passing the away or here info without having to load the server up or client with a ton of useless /commands ..... i can live tho till this is something that is implemented. heck im only 28 ..... its gotta happen before im too old to read the monitor and am no longer able to chat LoL
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#37625 - 21/07/03 11:08 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
an ISAWAY <nick1> <nick2> ... would be easy to implement, and I really wouldn't mind implementing that in Unreal but the thing is, it's really useless unless other networks add support for it as well.

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#37626 - 21/07/03 11:13 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
_D3m0n_ Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 1527
Loc: Florida,USA
yeah i can understand your point on that .. but maybe if u added it others would follow along to suit? Im not saying go out and do it just because of my suggestion. i know u have a ton of more important things to be spending your time on than adding a PURDY MIRC identifier so that ppl like me can play with things when they are completely bored out of thier mind just to look at it and say hey that looks cool.
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#37627 - 22/07/03 12:24 AM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
neophyte Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 426
Loc: Australia
Ok, I agree with what you say to a certain point.


How will making an addition to the $ial affect the /who !?


The IAL is simply an INTERNAL address list. That means (like you said), that once the /who is updated, mIRC will automatically update the list on certain events (join, quit, part, whois, userhost, etc).

So how on earth will that encourage people to do a /who every 30 seconds is beyond me.

All an $ial is doing is manipulating the IAL of mIRC. It's not requesting a /who. If it was, then yes, I would be concerned.

I think that perhaps you might have overlooked that this simply manipulates the list stored within mIRC (think of it like an internal hash table, or an array, if you would, which simply stores the IAL, and adds/removes entries when needed).

This would be particularly useful in manipulating the IAL just that little bit further, so that a while loop isn't necessary to run through the output of the who raw to "scan" for the identifiers that are used for each IRCnetwork.

So forgetting the server side issues, and concentrating on the client side (which is what this request is for), this request would have about as much impact on the /who as a Bavarian Cream Cake would have on Pavarotti.

*edit*

If the here/gone status isn't stored within the IAL, then perhaps it should be.

And on the server side issues, perhaps it would be nice of those people that created IRCd's to think about sending away status to all servers.
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#37628 - 22/07/03 12:38 AM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
Raccoon Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 18/02/03
Posts: 2506
What is the point of storing Here/Gone in the IAL if one isn't going to keep it updated? And what other way but to /who the channel every 30 seconds?

I think the ISAWAY command would be an interesting method, but like ISON it would have to be issued every 30 seconds to be useful. It was my understanding servers wanted to get away from ISON and adopt the WATCH list instead. Perhaps instead of an ISAWAY command that would be issued more times than actual /away commands, why not make a User Flag that will notify the user when someone they share a channel with goes /away. This would certainly use less bandwidth.

Personally, I don't see why it's so necessary to see when someone is /away. It's a moot point, and not everyone even goes /away. I think someone's channel idle time speaks for itself... if they haven't spoken for 30 minutes, chances are they aren't currently participating in the conversation. mIRC already has an auto-nickcolor feature for this built in!

In Fact, more people set themselves /away and forget all about it for the entire day while they continue to participate in conversations. Some even use their /away field to store Quotes-Of-The-Day. The information is totally useless.

- Raccoon
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#37629 - 22/07/03 01:08 AM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
_D3m0n_ Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 1527
Loc: Florida,USA
ok as with everything in the irc worl it is all about the users point of veiw ..... u may not want to ever attempt to do somethng in your own mirc that isnt currently in it ... you may not want to do anything more than just look at the standard mirc. im speaking on behalf of everyone who isnt sharing your opinion as for this mode change to a user. yes this is something thats also a good idea ..... but nothing here suggested is currently possible .. Its not something that the mirc program can actually do its gotta be done ircd level.

as for things being a moot point about whether u wanna know if someone if away or not ..... well thats again your point of veiw on thigs and your entitled to that and i respect your opinion ... im just tryin to toss ideas out for ppl to veiw and possible atempt to implement
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#37630 - 22/07/03 01:23 AM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
Raccoon Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 18/02/03
Posts: 2506
ok as with everything in the irc world, it is all about the user's point of view

Incorrect. It is all about the server's point of view.
Without the servers, there would be no users.
If users don't script NICE things, the servers will stop serving.

Just because something may require changes on the IRCd level before they can be implimented, NICELY, doesn't mean that clients should go ahead and use un-nice methods in the mean time.

- Raccoon
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#37631 - 22/07/03 09:26 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
_D3m0n_ Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 1527
Loc: Florida,USA
how is making the chat environment as per the client used make my statement incorrect? its only incorrect as to how u personally look at things. im not gonna sit here all day and argue symantics(spelling is most likely wrong) with u about things ..... you have your mirc and your scripts i have mine. I only did what i did with my script while tryin to attempt to write it ... so i can assure u im not flooding servers with useless requests for useless info as u call it. lets just leave it at this ...... you make valid points and so do I. everything else is just useless text
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#37632 - 23/07/03 04:22 AM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
Raccoon Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 18/02/03
Posts: 2506
My points are not directed at any one isolated person, but on the larger scale implications of deploying such features. Suddenly the IAL offers a .away property, and everyone's ears perk up... but they find out the only way to get it to work properly is to query the server every 30 seconds for every channel they're in.

I could care less if a few people are doing this today, but when it becomes a helpfile option, it suddenly finds its way into every 2bit script and now 20,000 lusers are flooding the server with these useless requests. It's all about global impact, not the actions of 1 or 2 men.

- Raccoon
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#37633 - 23/07/03 04:03 PM Re: *** IAL Suggestion (yes, another one!)
codemastr Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 2809
Thats cause you're thinking of it wrong. First off, ignore these "2bit scripts" and recall mIRC's notify list. It uses ISON. mIRC uses this by sending an ISON every N seconds to see who is online. That could be just as CPU/bandwidth intensive as an ISAWAY. Secondly, who says such a feature has to be implemented as ISAWAY? If I were to do it, I'd most likely make it an extension to the WATCH command. Where in addition to recording logon/logoff it can log away/unaway. In which case, the client would only make one request, when they connect, after that, it is handled internally by the server.

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