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#234145 - 09/10/11 09:50 AM listbox and hotkeys
ascription Offline
Babel fish

Registered: 13/04/10
Posts: 59
A couple of miscellaneous ideas:

- horizontal listbox option for small data- or table-oriented windows, in particular a table for counting activity. the workaround would be /rline, replace a line, combined with tabstops.

- window numbers next to the names in the chan bar (switchbar?), for hotkeys, without checking the window menu or memorizing.

- alt+shift for 10 more window hotkeys

- right ctrl and right alt, seem to be omitted or disabled.

on KEYDOWN might suffice for 3 & 4. any ideas for 2?


Edited by ascription (09/10/11 09:53 AM)

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#234150 - 09/10/11 02:50 PM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: ascription]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
If you read the version history and even the new beta's changes, you'll see that the right ALT was done on purpose and is now being updated to work as expected on US keyboard layouts. Right Ctrl works fine. I just verified that by copying text and the control codes were copied along with the text. And Ctrl-V with the right CTRL also works.

Better options for formatting text in windows have been suggested before and I'm sure those are probably already on Khaled's list. You do have some options in the meantime. Dialogs and picture windows both allow you a lot more control in text output and formatting.
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#234178 - 11/10/11 09:49 AM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: Riamus2]
ascription Offline
Babel fish

Registered: 13/04/10
Posts: 59
You're right. I'm a victim of stage fright and I don't respond well under pressure, such as posting on the forum. What's worse, I didn't do my homework, and it's not even my first "publication".

Anyway, one more for the undisciplined, fanciful, fantastic, and not proofread user-contributed list:

- Favorites > Edit dialog has Connect on Join checkbox, in addition to Join on Connect. It is selected by default.

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#234180 - 11/10/11 11:14 AM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: ascription]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
If you're talking about "Enable Join on Connect" and "Join on Connect", then the first is a global option to enable or disable it. The second is a per-channel option that works as long as the global Join on Connect is enabled.
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#234201 - 12/10/11 02:32 AM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: Riamus2]
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Babel fish

Registered: 13/04/10
Posts: 59
No. I said, "Connect on Join checkbox, in addition to Join on Connect".

The Edit Channel dialog has a Join on Connect checkbox. It needs a Connect on Join checkbox, which is selected by default.

If you select a channel from the Favorites menu when you're not connected, mIRC attempts to connect and join it. This is not always desired. If you remove the network from the Networks combobox, it returns to All Networks, instead of None, which is not always desired either, and in fact quite surprising to me, although No Networks would never perform the operation.

An option in the Options -> IRC -> Options dialog, Connect on Join may suffice.

"Connect on Select from Favorites" may be a better title for the operation.

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#234204 - 12/10/11 03:24 AM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: ascription]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
Yes, I saw what you said, but you were far from clear in what you were trying to say. Even what you just posted is not very clear, though I think I know what you're saying this time...

Favorites are set up to allow you to quickly join a favorite channel. You can do this by enabling Join on Connect, which will automatically join the channel when you connect. In addition, you can click the channel in your favorites list and it will connect to the appropriate network and join the channel. This is desirable behavior for those who use favorites. If you don't want to connect to the network, don't click the channel. There really is no reason to click a favorite if you don't intend to connect and join that channel. You don't click on favorites in your browser and expect it to just sit there doing nothing. You expect it to take you to your favorite. Considering this behavior is pretty much standard for favorites in most software, there is no reason to change how this behaves. If you want different behavior for personal needs, then you can always script your own favorites system. This is what scripting is here for.

Removing a network probably should not change the favorite to use all networks. Though most people aren't removing networks that they have favorites set to. It would be worth looking into alternative options if you remove a network that has a favorite associated with it.
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#234208 - 12/10/11 11:56 AM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: Riamus2]
ascription Offline
Babel fish

Registered: 13/04/10
Posts: 59
I retreated from use of the Favorites menu for the exact reason that it caused a connect. I'd lost my connection while I was AFK, and channel windows were still open. When I returned, I joined a new channel, causing the connect! Not a problem of course, except in the rare case your network offers hostmasks or cloaks, although it might be some time before you rejoin the previous channels.

Compared to browsers, you might not want your browser to connect you to the internet when you click a bookmark, if you're not already connected. Or, you might not want an app to remap a network drive if the connection was lost. Or, you might not want an app to open a file on an external drive, if it's a different drive than the original file was on that has a file with the same name! No, the behavior is not "pretty much standard". In general, we need computers to alert us to ambiguities, when our meaning is not determined by the context, more; and it's an extremely shallow context.

Regarding our miscommunication, I believe I said, "The Edit Channel dialog has feature X", rather than "needs" or "should have". I was describing my idea, not attempting to motivate a behavior in others. I've observed both strategies for communicating, and I'm not sure either is obviously better or worse, but they might be. Further, users who speak languages with other syntaxes might have still different interpretations.

Edit:

If on COMMAND, in the Windows sense of the event corresponding to the user selecting a menu item, were available, I could script the above option. Furthermore, since on KEYDOWN only occurs in custom or graphics windows, some other of the options I presented are not available by scripting either!


Edited by ascription (12/10/11 12:49 PM)

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#234209 - 12/10/11 12:48 PM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: ascription]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
I disagree. If I click on a bookmark or a shortcut, I expect to be taken to it. If I click on it, then it means I want to access that information. Regarding a file with a different name... a shortcut isn't going to suddenly point to some other location unless the file is missing and you get the browse for file option (and ACCEPT it). If you have a situation where files/shortcuts are changing enough for that to be a problem, then you really shouldn't be using shortcuts anyhow. Btw, other than a login, if you have a shortcut to a network drive, it will take you to it even if it's not mapped. There is no valid reason to click a favorite if you don't want to go to that location. Why else would you click it?

Regarding "The Edit Channel dialog has feature X" ... you said it had both checkboxes (in addition to), which is incorrect. It has one checkbox that enables or disables auto-join and one checkbox for each individual favorite to join a channel on connect. There is not a "Join on Connect" and "Connect on Join" in the favorites dialog.


Edited by Riamus2 (12/10/11 12:54 PM)
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#234210 - 12/10/11 12:54 PM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: Riamus2]
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Babel fish

Registered: 13/04/10
Posts: 59
'There is not a "Join on Connect" and "Connect on Join" in the favorites dialog.' No, but I'm saying there should be, which is why I pointed out our miscommunication.

'a shortcut isn't going to suddenly point to some other location.' Concretely, if a shortcut points to D:\readme.txt , where D: is a removable disk or drive, then the particular target of the shortcut depends on the identity of that; it can point to many things. You also didn't address the mapped drive and internet connection "ambiguities".

Also, please see the edit in my previous post.

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#234211 - 12/10/11 12:56 PM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: ascription]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
RE: Scripting... Why not? It's easy to create a dialog or popup menu to handle a custom favorites. It's been done numerous times.
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#234212 - 12/10/11 01:03 PM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: ascription]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
Originally Posted By: ascription
'There is not a "Join on Connect" and "Connect on Join" in the favorites dialog.' No, but I'm saying there should be, which is why I pointed out our miscommunication.


That may be what you meant, but you did say "in addition to", which means that you are saying there are two. It caused the misunderstanding, which was then cleared up after you added more detail. In addition, your reply today stated that you were listing what it HAS and not what it needed. You're flipping back and forth on what you're saying. In one, you say that you were talking about what features mIRC has and not what you want, and here you're saying that you meant what you wanted instead of what it has.

Quote:
- Favorites > Edit dialog has Connect on Join checkbox, in addition to Join on Connect. It is selected by default.


That is your original comment. Looking at it again, it still (by itself) does not provide any information about what you're saying or asking. Just looking at that without any other later posts, you say that it has both options by saying "in addition to". You also say it's enabled by default. You don't say why you mentioned it. You don't say you think it should be disabled or that you think it should have another checkbox or anything that might make it clear what you want. In any case, this is cleared up now.

Quote:
'a shortcut isn't going to suddenly point to some other location.' Concretely, if a shortcut points to D:\readme.txt , where D: is a removable disk or drive, then the particular target of the shortcut depends on the identity of that; it can point to many things. You also didn't address the mapped drive and internet connection "ambiguities".


It is usually a bad idea to set up a shortcut to a drive letter that can change or be used by something else. In addition, IF you did set up a shortcut to d:\whatever.txt, it would attempt to open that location when you clicked on the shortcut regardless if the original drive is present. If the file doesn't exist, it will ask you if you want to browse for it. If it exists, it will open it even if it's the wrong file. I'm not sure what you're getting at because your example here supports what I said... that if you click on it, the standard behavior is to access it immediately, or at least attempt to.

If you read my edit, you'll see that I did address mapped drives. Shortcuts to mapped drives will still open the file regardless if the drive is mapped as long as you have access to the location (and if necessary, enter the password). For web browsing, only dialup networking has an option to prevent a connection when clicking on a bookmark and there is a specific reason for that option. It's because dialup often has fees attached to using the phone (such as long distance charges) and therefore, the option prevents you from being charged unless you're sure you want to connect. That's not quite the same situation.

Even my FTP program, if I click my favorite, will connect to the appropriate network. This really is standard behavior.


Edited by Riamus2 (12/10/11 01:20 PM)
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#234213 - 12/10/11 01:25 PM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: Riamus2]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
The one thing that I would agree about is that it should use /server -m instead of /server to connect if you are connected to a different network.
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#234233 - 13/10/11 08:35 AM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: Riamus2]
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Babel fish

Registered: 13/04/10
Posts: 59
One, you don't seem to think that my communication effort was "valid" in some way originally.

Two, clearly you don't seriously maintain the position that "everything can be scripted" unconditionally, for example because otherwise this forum wouldn't exist, but you definitely seem to be saying so.

Three, I wonder if another part of our miscommunication is stemming from my presentation of bad ideas, or worse, uninformed ideas, along with the good. For your information, it is an expected result of any creative effort. Maybe we disagree on what degree forum posts should be "finished". I'm new, but that quantity isn't announced anywhere unambiguously; in fact, there seems to be quite some discrepancy in the sticky posts. Finished products can be respectful and considerate of others' time, but can also be quite chilly. If respectful == chilly, then I have a lot to learn!

I'm inclined to drop the argument about how common the "should I connect?" option is. The topic of indirect machine pathfinding even includes video games, with stuff like, "should (NPC, non-player character) Unit X cross the river?" and what not, especially when the user wants to answer, "sometimes". Arguing won't change how common it is, it will only change our perception, yours and mine. Unless we find 0% or 100%, then it's a trade-off, and another checkbox would be a good chunk of real estate on the screen. Every pixel hurts!

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#234234 - 13/10/11 09:30 AM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: ascription]
Khaled Offline


Planetary brain

Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 4344
Loc: London, UK
I experimented with adding numbers to the switchbar buttons a long time ago but it did not quite work out - I think I tried both placing the number before the icon and overlapping the icon and it only made the button look crowded or unclear. Now that I think about it, one option I did not try out was to only show the number when you press the ALT key - I could make it so that the number replaces the icon completely - that would make it clearer. I will add this to my to-do list.

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#234237 - 13/10/11 11:21 AM Re: listbox and hotkeys [Re: ascription]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
Nowhere did I say everything can be scripted. However, I did say that you can easily script a custom favorites, which is what you implied couldn't be done. And game pathfinding is completely different from favorites/bookmarks/shortcuts. Just because you click somewhere in order to go there does not make the two things the same. Out of all your examples that you are using to try and make it appear that clicking on a bookmark or favorite doesn't take you to it, only your browser example held any weight and as I explained there, there is a specific (financial) reason for that. Very little is ever 0% or 100%, but if the majority of things in a topic function in basically the same way, then you can consider it standard behavior. And clicking on a favorite and being taken to it is standard behavior as I pointed out. It is rarely a good idea to go against standard behavior.
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