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Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: argv0] #192063 21/12/07 08:35 PM
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LostShadow Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: argv0
No, I'm upgrading this to the fact that you're intentionally refusing to follow the stated rules and etiquette of standard IRC channels. Try your script on any other "official channel" and see how long you last.


I guess I could use a link, since you seem to be talking about something specific.

Originally Posted By: argv0
It should also be noted that you chose to have this discussion in a public forum rather than first approaching an op privately on this issue, which only proves that you're complaining for the sake of it, making this conversation the most pointless waste of time. Complain away.


Herbie doesn't talk. And nice conspiracy here - trying to get me to break an additional channel rule by private messaging an op. Note that there are several ops involved, 1 traditional IRC etiquette rule is (which you may not agree with me) is that any IRC op or channel op is responsible for their own bans and not others.

Originally Posted By: argv0
mIRC #efnet is not "official", by the way, we're merely enthusiasts helping out of our own good will. Ho ho ho.


It's a good thing I used the /. Had to be 1 or the other. Official in terms of Efnet? Most like not. Official to mIRC.com?

If you say Efnet #mIRC is as official as any other mIRC-help channel, I wouldn't have anything relevant to say.

-Neal.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: Bekar] #192064 21/12/07 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bekar
Not only have you been told the reason for your ban and ignored our request, you also have ban-evaded in the past, and seem to have a war-dialler, so whenever the ban is removed, you re-join immediately.

You can be pretty much assured, you will NEVER be allowed back in the channel as long as this sort of behaviour continues.


Suppose anyone can be permanently banned for anything at any time. Meaning, there are no rational standards to justify whether a ban is set or not. Therefore, there is no action that a person can argue is justified because he or she believes that it is right. If they [the ops] believe that what they do is an acceptable means to decide what to do, they will ultimately have no choice but to accept that whatever they do can be whatever they want, as all they need is to say that they think it is the right thing to do. You can have no rational reply.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192066 21/12/07 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: LostShadow

any IRC op or channel op is responsible for their own bans and not others.


I believed that was the channel founder? or the one giving oper status? when I adding op's in my channels or give them oper status, then I let them know if they did something wrong, im a strong believer in give a reason for a ban/kick, not just kick a user without let him/her know why, same goes for the k-lines my opers set.


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Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta] #192067 21/12/07 09:17 PM
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LostShadow Offline OP
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Right, Efnet #mIRC does not have services, or much hierarchy. Sure enough, in a channel with services, you can take it all up to the founder (or to a SOp if in conflict with another AOp or founder if conflict with a SOp).

And then an IRC op's admin.

Originally Posted By: sparta
Originally Posted By: LostShadow

any IRC op or channel op is responsible for their own bans and not others.


I believed that was the channel founder? or the one giving oper status? when I adding op's in my channels or give them oper status, then I let them know if they did something wrong, im a strong believer in give a reason for a ban/kick, not just kick a user without let him/her know why,


My point was you don't go to channel op B when you get banned by channel op A.

I was referring to a place with equal hierarchy, such that you would need staff to decide on things, rather than any 1 individual.

Originally Posted By: sparta
same goes for the k-lines my opers set.


That works real well with small networks, such that people know who the hub owner is. But not so well for large networks like Efnet, Dalnet, Webnet, and Undernet. Etc.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow] #192068 21/12/07 09:20 PM
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argv0 Offline
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Originally Posted By: LostShadow
I guess I could use a link, since you seem to be talking about something specific.


Standard etiquette rule: listen to what ops tell you.

Originally Posted By: LostShadow

And nice conspiracy here - trying to get me to break an additional channel rule by private messaging an op.


That isn't a conspiracy, it's again, standard etiquette. You're expected to act like a mature human being. When you have a problem with somebody in real life, you talk to them privately first before you take a bullhorn to your rooftop and start screaming about it, don't you?

Frankly, if you didn't just get the hint in me asking you to take this up privately, you must really be slow.

Quote:
Note that there are several ops involved, 1 traditional IRC etiquette rule is (which you may not agree with me) is that any IRC op or channel op is responsible for their own bans and not others.


And that is the case. It turns out, though, that you have made many ops equally responsible for your ban because of your constant troublemaking.

Quote:
It's a good thing I used the /. Had to be 1 or the other. Official in terms of Efnet? Most like not. Official to mIRC.com?


"Not official" means not official. Meaning, in plain english-- we are not the official channel. Pick any context you want, I just gave you the blanket statement.

The only official place for support is technically this forum.. the IRC channels have been setup by enthusiasts. Khaled doesn't check up on us, and we're not on any sort of payroll.. thats as unofficial as it can get.

We help people out of our own will to give others extra support for the client-- and as ops we only make the small request that people listen to us to our respective channel rules, be it on EFNet, Quakenet, Undernet, Dalnet, or some small network. These rules may vary from network to network and may sometimes vary from op to op, but you are free to leave if you do not like the rules imposed on you. You are *not*, however, free to continually annoy the ops by refusing to listen to their rules, however wrong you may think they are. This is a cultural thing, and applies not just to #mIRC on EFNet, but to all channels on all IRC networks, and I won't patronize you in explaining how this also applies to your real life. I'm hoping you already know that.


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Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: argv0] #192069 21/12/07 09:28 PM
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LostShadow Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: argv0
Originally Posted By: LostShadow

And nice conspiracy here - trying to get me to break an additional channel rule by private messaging an op.


That isn't a conspiracy, it's again, standard etiquette. You're expected to act like a mature human being. When you have a problem with somebody in real life, you talk to them privately first before you take a bullhorn to your rooftop and start screaming about it, don't you?

Frankly, if you didn't just get the hint in me asking you to take this up privately, you must really be slow.


I made an assumption - however off - I did not think a typical #mIRC op would want my 4 page complaint in their p.m. window. Hence a message board. Was I wrong?

Originally Posted By: argv0
Quote:
Note that there are several ops involved, 1 traditional IRC etiquette rule is (which you may not agree with me) is that any IRC op or channel op is responsible for their own bans and not others.


And that is the case. It turns out, though, that you have made many ops equally responsible for your ban because of your constant troublemaking.


Sounds like you've got some ideas/bringing on a slightly new topic - go on.

-Neal.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192070 21/12/07 09:29 PM
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This thread is getting a bit rediculous. Yes, I did state that I felt that Efnet isn't really the nicest network to visit, but in no way can I agree with you on anything you're saying, LostShadow. Even if some things you say are correct, the fact that you are blantantly ignoring the channel rules even after you know what they are, and you're stating here that you will continue to ignore them, makes everything else you have to say invalid even if it's legitimate.

Ops in ALL channels have the right to do what they wish, set whatever rules they like (even if they are stupid rules), kick/ban people if they want, etc. Only other ops, or higher levels if the network allows it, have any say in policing the ops themselves. If you don't like the rules, then don't visit the channel. DON'T keep visiting, evading bans, and ignoring the rules.

And as far as dealing with conflicts between a non-op and an op, yes, start with talking to the person who you're having the issue with. If you can't get anywhere there, then DO go and talk with another op (or another higher level person if the network supports it). If you get nowhere in the channel and the issue is network related rather than channel related, you can take it to an ircop. If you get nowhere there, or if it's only a channel related issue, then you're done. Drop it and move on.

As far as the issue with helping people in PM... I understand the idea behind not doing so to prevent malicious help, but at the same point, I have been helped before in #mIRC in PM and I give support in other channels via PM. I've gotten support in official scripting channels as well in PM and given support there in PM. Sure, someone could cause problems that way, but banning someone for helping in PM seems a bit too harsh to me. Still, as I said, the rules are there and it's the channel owner's and ops' choice of what rules they want to have. It doesn't matter what my opinion on the rules is. It also doesn't matter what your opinion is.

As a note, if you ran that script in a channel I owned or was opped in, I'd warn/kick/ban you as well.


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Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Riamus2] #192071 21/12/07 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: Riamus2
but in no way can I agree with you on anything you're saying, LostShadow. Even if some things you say are correct, the fact that you are blantantly ignoring the channel rules even after you know what they are, and you're stating here that you will continue to ignore them, makes everything else you have to say invalid even if it's legitimate.

Ops in ALL channels have the right to do what they wish, set whatever rules they like (even if they are stupid rules), kick/ban people if they want, etc.


It probably didn't occur to you, but like "a typical IRC channel," when regarding rules and bans, Efnet #mIRC is a popularity contest. You are judged by whether you are liked or not when enforcing channel rules. The fact that a channel op dislikes you, is no encouragement that he will not look for a case where he wouldn't have done the same to someone he did like.

Argv[0] confirmed to me himself that the basis of enforcing channel rules is built on reputation. After he found out that the porno link pasted person he banned was Kniht, and unbanned, he did tell me after I asked him that it's about reputation.

This is why people like Mike` and logicIRCd are allowed to run a country locator script.

If you're not liked, then you will be given the disadvantage of the doubt, and rules can be enforced stricter on you. Your safety status in any channel is dependent on the discretion of any channel op.

-Neal.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192072 21/12/07 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: LostShadow

Argv[0] confirmed to me himself that the basis of channel rules is built on reputation. After he found out that the porno link pasted person he banned was Kniht, and unbanned, he did tell me after I asked him that it's about reputation.



I think mostly it's about security and looking out for the users. You said yourself that this Kniht person that pasted the porn url was an op and was unbanned, well it's a pretty common channel rule that ops do not deop, kick or ban other ops, and besides that, it seems to me that if they know the person that is running the script, or pasting the url, or helping in private, then they also believe this person wouldn't do anything malicious to bring harm to an unsuspecting user. They don't know this of every other user on the channel so they can't have just anyone pasting a url to the channel because that's not safe. The same goes for helping in private and running scripts on the channel, it's just something that's reserved for ops and other people they know. The ops have the power to use their own discretion because they are known and trusted and responsible, which is probably why they were given the op status in the first place.

I really don't think it was your place to notify someone that their ban was lifted and they may re-join the channel and you were in the wrong and should have stopped when asked by the op. You're really showing the world here that you're pretty immature by dragging this all here as if anyone here can, or even is willing to do anything about it, or that anyone really cares at all that you feel you were done injustice. It's my opinion that you should probably grow up and start obeying the rules of the channels on which you have no power or just don't join them.

Last edited by RoCk; 21/12/07 10:07 PM.
Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: RoCk] #192073 21/12/07 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: RoCk
I think mostly it's about security and looking out for the users. You said yourself that this Kniht person that pasted the porn url was an op and was unbanned, well it's a pretty common channel rule that ops do not deop, kick or ban other ops, and besides that, it seems to me that if they know the person that is running the script, or pasting the url, or helping in private, then they also believe this person wouldn't do anything malicious to an unsuspecting user. They can't hjave just anyone pasting a url to the channel because that's not safe. Same for helping in private and running scripts on the channel, it's a right that's reserved for ops and other people they know.


Nice example. Here's mine.

I once joined a network where I knew most of the users from another network. But 1 IRC op there hated me - he akilled me for no reason at will. Everyday. Another IRC op, that actually liked me, decided to do something about it. He made me an IRC op. That way - I can no longer be akilled, as IRC ops don't akill each other. And the other oper was to deal with it.

Does the above story look like a solution to you? I hope not. I think it's a problem. That's exactly what I'm trying to go against.

Originally Posted By: RoCk
I really don't think it was your place to notify someone that their ban was lifted and they may re-join the channel and you were in the wrong and should have stopped when asked by the op. You're really showing the world here that you're pretty immature by dragging this all here as if anyone here can, or even is willing to do anything about it. It's my opinion that you should probably grow up and start obeying the rules of channels on which you have no power.


As it's for all networks and all channels, none of them have to be my place to be involved with - it's a freelance involvement I do, sure enough, you can't have it both ways, you'll have a side that likes it and a side that doesn't like it.

RE: by dragging this all here as if anyone here can, or even is willing to do anything about it.

2.) No one has to do anything about it.

-Neal.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192074 21/12/07 10:03 PM
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sparta Offline
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maybe /nick newnick and a new ident would help? if you behave wink


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Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta] #192075 21/12/07 10:12 PM
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Er... is the Efnet #mIRC a good place I could go for scripting help?

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta] #192076 21/12/07 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: sparta
maybe /nick newnick and a new ident would help? if you behave

A change in behaviour is all he needs, all of the ops from #mirc efnet have hinted at that on this very thread.


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Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Mpot] #192077 21/12/07 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mpot
Er... is the Efnet #mIRC a good place I could go for scripting help?


I have found that to be the best place for the Efnet network.

For Dalnet, there's #scripting, but newbs are looked down on.

For Undernet, there's #mircscripting.

For Webnet/WebChat, there's #help.mIRC.

Edit: keep in mind, for whole-script helps on IRC, best to use that + stuff like pastebin and nomorepasting.com, etc., sites.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192078 21/12/07 10:15 PM
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@ Lostshadow:

It is indeed about reputation. You know how users like Mike` and Kniht gained their reputation? By becoming liked. You know how they did that? They dealt without the benefit of the doubt, behaved, and didn't argue with ops about their rules. You're walking down the exact opposite path.


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Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: argv0] #192079 21/12/07 10:17 PM
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LostShadow Offline OP
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That's fine - I'm someone that can have an opinion and willing to "debate" the logic of a rule or event.

-Neal.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192080 21/12/07 10:22 PM
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You can have your opinions, but they're unlikely to affect our rules. Save your breath for the debate. Again, if you don't like them, feel free to try another network's #mIRC.

Also, what RoCk said was 100% accurate. I unbanned Kniht because I usually don't ban regulars off the bat. Keep in mind that while you assume you know the whole story, you should also realize that anytime a reg does something wrong they are informed about it-- except unlike you, we actually talk to them about it in private so as not to make it into a whole comotion. You should also realize that these regulars learn from these mistakes, and usually don't repeat them (intentionally)-- again unlike you.


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Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow] #192085 21/12/07 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: LostShadow

It probably didn't occur to you, but like "a typical IRC channel," when regarding rules and bans, Efnet #mIRC is a popularity contest. You are judged by whether you are liked or not when enforcing channel rules. The fact that a channel op dislikes you, is no encouragement that he will not look for a case where he wouldn't have done the same to someone he did like.


I don't see your point. As I stated, enforcing rules is completely up to the ops in any channel and they can do so in whatever way they like because it is THEIR channel. Other ops/admins/etc can choose to discipline other ops if things get out of hand, but other than that, they can do whatever they choose to. Because it is their channel and their right. If it's all about popularity, so what? That's their choice. That doesn't give you the right to abuse the rules.

I think this is a good time to see the topic locked as there isn't a debate or discussion even going on here... it's all just flaming #mIRC.


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Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Riamus2] #192086 22/12/07 12:10 AM
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I don't think it's really about popularity. It's more about trust.

On EFNet's #mIRC there are many regulars who help out, who are happy to abide by the rules. Sure, some push those rules, and are pushed back if they overstep their boundaries. They've been around long enough to show that they are responsible and responsive to comment.

Trust is gained in this manner.

You on the other hand stepped in, pushed the rules, ignored comments, and thus any possible credibility or trust was destroyed. When asked to stop this behaviour, you ignored the requestor and continued. You didn't try to get along with the community; you only tried to push your own agenda.

So in order to limit the interruption you were causing, you were kicked and banned. When these bans were removed, you came back in and continued your previous behaviour unchanged. Thus you were put onto a permanent ban list. As EFNet doesn't have services, most such bans are removed every few hours so as not to fill up ban lists. When this temporary removal occurred, you charged back in, and were thus put straight back on the ban list.

These bans will now no longer be removed for any reason. Your behaviour and attitude are not welcome.

Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow] #192087 22/12/07 02:08 AM
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This seems like a totally pointless thread.

@OP:
IRC channel operators are not required to be fair in ANY way. There are no laws in IRC channels. Any moral or ethical decisions are by choice only. The 'higher' level ops (channel founders, etc) may choose to enforce their own consequences for ops who disobey the channel's guidelines, but that is not a requirement either. You are in their channel, and thus are required to either do as they say (follow the rules) or leave (whether by choice or otherwise).

The rules laid out in a channel are 'general guidelines' that were created by the channel's ops. As a result, those rules can be created, modified, or removed without any notice to you or anyone else. The rules do not have to be fair, or at all logical. For example, if I (or any other op) chose, I could ban you simply because I dislike nicknames that contain an 'h'. I'd not be required to provide any explanation of any type to you, nor would I have to ever unban you if I so chose.

In most cases, channel rules are quite fair and logical. As several ops of the channel in question have stated, you were specifically and repeatedly told of a rule (whether it previously existed or was created on the spot for you) and you refused to abide by that rule. As a result of your refusal to follow that rule, you were banned. It is as simple as that. There is no point in complaining about it, and evading will just cause the ops to change a potential temp-ban into a permanent ban instantly.

-genius_at_work


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