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#192035 - 21/12/07 08:00 AM My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC.
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Personally there are many reasons why a regular user should get to decide 'certain' things in channels they do not run. The rationality of the op staff usually impacts their intelligence and their response to fairness

You want it both ways and you can't have it both ways. If you want an op staff where good cause is required for you to resign your status, you have to accept a negotiation where there are penalties for quitting without cause. Most ops really do want an at-will status agreement. That means they can make any demands on their founder for any reason and quit if they're not met. But it also means their founder can make any demands on them for any reason and demote them if they're not met.

You certainly can negotiate an agreement where certain reasons are not sufficient justification for being banned, but you had better expect that certain reasons are not going to be sufficient justification for quitting.

And then the channel lacks justice - justice for non-staff.

Justice is the virtue of evaluating people's conduct and character accurately and objectively and rendering to each person what he deserves, what he has earned. Justice is rationality in one's affairs involving others - adherence to reality in the sphere of interpersonal relationships.

Now, several things I probably won't cover, however logical, because of human nature.

-Op discretion.
-Temp bans.

Apparently, anything discretion is life. There's police discretion, juge discretion, etc. Not many points making Efnet #mIRC perfect when the world isn't anyways.

Temp bans, because a bot named herbie removes them, and then, channel ban incidents on the individual level seem to be forgotten easily.

And then I could sort of cut the op staff in half: ops who get pissed off easily, and ops who do not get pissed off easily. But then, a lot of other channels have that problem, as well as real life society.

Now for my complaints.

1.Pragmatism is not ethical for #mIRC.
Pragmatism is the doctrine that ops should do whatever works. The problem with this doctrine is that we cannot determine what works and what does not until we have a standard of value for comparing them. Once we have a standard of value their is no further question of what we 'should' do. Thus pragmatism is not a system of ethics because it does not tell us what to value and that is the role of ethics.

2.Banning the ident.

Like all channels, Efnet #mIRC has the same problem.

Banning the ident is like banning the nick.

Because we are in the Nick!Ident@Host format, where nick can be changed, and so can ident, it is meaningless to ban the ident, just as much as banning the nick.

The exceptions to this are when you specifically ban the nick/ident/host because it is offensive or a swear word, that way, they can "rightfully" evade by using 1 that is not offensive, etc.

Since nicks can be changed, as well as idents, it is meaningless to ban the nick, as well as the ident.

And my premise is based on the point of the ban - to prevent the person from /join'ing the channel. Not some random, social-engineering drama.

Now I don't want to hear the excuse "my mIRC by default bans the ident." That's just too lazy; I won't buy that for an excuse.

3.Are scripts allowed or not-allowed for non-staff?

I think there is several confusion going on on 1 particular rule: whether or not scripts can be run in the channel for non-staff.

Take a look at this for example.

[December 17 2007 Monday 09:47:45 AM] <03qwerty-> !country ba
[December 17 2007 Monday 09:47:46 AM] <12Hrung> ba corresponds to Bosnia and Herzegovina
[December 17 2007 Monday 09:47:46 AM] <logiclrd> qwerty-: Name for the .BA TLD is Bosnia and Herzegovina.
[December 17 2007 Monday 09:47:46 AM] <Mike`> Country code: .ba Name: Bosnia and Herzegovina Location: (43 52 N, 18 25 E) Southeastern Europe, bordering the Adriatic Sea and Croatia

So you have a +v triggering the scripts. So the 1st 1 is an op. The 3rd 1 is a mirc.com moderator. And then, don't know who thd 2nd 1 is, but the 2nd and 3rd are "regular users."

Now, there are 2 philosophies. Scripts that output to the channel, and scripts that don't output to the channel. I could have a script that shows the clones when a person joins the channel in a clone-detecting script for Efnet #mIRC. Would a no-script rule jurisdict that? Hopefully not, because we assume no one would know about it (unless you output it of course).

Which is why I find it significant to differentiate between scripts that output to the channel and scripts that don't output to the channel.

Anyone agree with me?

Because 1 philosophy I agree in when making a rule, is the ability to know when the rule is broken. And it shouldn't be "did you break the rule? Yes/no." (such as when the op wasn't there), because that's not reliable.

And then you say, "what about breaking an Efnet #mIRC outside the channel," and then I say, "that's off the subject. Because that's outside the channel jurisdiction. Channel rules have to have channel jurisdictions and it should only constitute inside the channel." For example, someone could be banned in Efnet #mIRC just for posting this topic.

4.The philosophy between channel ops and channel rules.

I see 2 philosophies when involving channel ops and channel rules.

They are.

1.Ops are someone who can enforce the rules and cannot break them.
2.Ops are someone who can enforce the rules and can break them.

I hope Efnet #mIRC is not the latter.

But it seems it is.

There was 1 incident (which I may not have the logs to back up), where, a channel op was using another nick, and said to me a porn site. A channel op instantly banned him. But then, whether instantly or a couple seconds later, the 3 bots, herbie, etc., removed the mask. Now of course, the op banned the ident, and the ident, was the channel op's real nick. Thus realizing that the op banned another op, he instantly shrieked and unbanned. Then the op rejoined either using the right nick, or /nick'd after, and opped up, and probably removing his ban. This was around a year ago.

And then of course, the op who banned the other op apologized, despite the fact that the op posted a porno link. Well, at least they know how to get along with 1 another..

Let's talk about, rationality.

We like Efnet #mIRC to be stable.

Thus, rules.

5.Modoc has a script that bans people whenever they say the f word.

Good idea, however, there are several external problems.

-If Modoc was not in the channel, then you would think someone else would ban kick users for saying the f word. But apparently, Modoc is the only op that had the script.

-Someone said the f word when Modoc was not in the channel. When Modoc joined, I reported Modoc about that situation. Did Modoc care? Apparently not.

-This goes back to my philosophy on channel ops and channel rules: ops can break them. When Karen` said the f word regarding President Bush in regards to the Terry Schiavo incident, she did not trigger Modoc's script. And when someone pasted a log of Karen` saying the f word, that user got ban kicked no doubt, and Karen` unbanned.

Personally I like this 1. Karen` gave the user the benefit of the doubt. She didn't care so much about enforcing the f word rule (or simply Modoc's script) and unbanned the user.

6.Kniht's scripts.

He ban kicks people for using nicks in all ____ with a kick message like "Please join with a more inappropriate nick," or something.

But guess what. He resigned. And when he did, that meant anyone joining the channel with a _____________ nick would no longer get automaticaly banned. What can we do about that?

Some other stuff Kniht had in his scripts which are less meaningful.

-If someone also joined the channel with a nick like Bill Gates, they would get instantly banned with a kick message.

-If someone joined using the nick Khaled, they would get banned with the no Khaled impersonation. This I like, but of course, I would want other ops to have this script too.

Why should certain channel rules be dependent on who's on the op list and who isn't? Can't they have rules for all of staff to enforce? Or maybe have none of the ops run the scripts, and let the bots run it.

Remember, we like rationality here. And we like rational staff. If we want a rational channel - then we need a channel run by rational staff. Pretty simple and pretty complicated. Pretty simple in terms of the idea - and pretty complicated in terms of who decides who is rational or not.

-Neal Conroy.

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#192036 - 21/12/07 09:42 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Mentality Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 5024
Loc: London, England
Quite frankly you think of IRC far too deeply. As with many IRC channels, its rules are quite flexible, and some situations call for a ban and some don't. Op discretion. Don't like it? Leave. Or be banned, as you probably were. It's as simple as that.

If I remember correctly, your script was informing users when they were unbanned. We don't want you to do that, and you were asked a number of times to stop using it. You point blank refused, because you think you have a right to do what you want, just because certain other people have gotten away with using scripts. Apart from the fact that it's none of your business what other people do, the point is this: you were asked to stop doing something, you refused, you were banned. Welcome to IRC.

Regards,
_________________________
Mentality/Chris

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#192038 - 21/12/07 11:26 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Mentality]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
Basically, I'd have to agree with Mentality about this. Ops can enforce rules however they want to. Preferably, they do it fairly, but whether or not it's fair, it's up to them. Unless other ops and/or the founder decides to prevent it, of course.

That said, I've never found Efnet to be particularly welcoming. I try to avoid it for the most part. The #mIRC channel can be helpful at times and at other times you can find people acting pretty bad in there. But like I said, that's not just #mIRC, but Efnet in general... and just my own personal experiences on that network. And that isn't to say that everyone is like that. There are a lot of helpful people there. Unfortunately, there also seems to be a disproportionate number of annoying/troublemaking people there as well. And then there's the issue where most channels on Efnet require users to figure out where their rules are in order to follow them rather than actually pointing the user to the correct location either with a topic or a message or something. That causes a lot of people, especially new users who don't know to even look for rules when there isn't anything in the channel that even references them, to be banned. And then there are rules that are, imo, rather stupid rules that aren't really useful and just harm those who don't know about them and are likely to break them without intending to do anything wrong. Yes, sometimes ops will warn you and then you're ok... other times they'll ban you outright without even telling you why you were banned. What I've found is that avoiding talking except when absolutely necessary in any channel on Efnet is the safest thing to do. And that's the *only* network where I feel that way... and I know a LOT of people who also avoid that network for the same reason. That should tell people something about how it's being run, but apparently those on it don't really care that much and that's fine. It all goes back to the original thing I said... ops can do what they want in their own channel, whether it's fair or not.
_________________________
Invision Support
#Invision on irc.irchighway.net

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#192041 - 21/12/07 04:22 PM It's nice to be remembered, ... [Re: LostShadow]
Kniht Offline
Mostly harmless

Registered: 21/12/07
Posts: 1
... but I haven't opped in EFnet #mIRC for years. Where is this coming from?

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#192042 - 21/12/07 04:36 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
starbucks_mafia Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2962
Loc: Norwich, UK
You need to get laid.
_________________________
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.

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#192043 - 21/12/07 04:42 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: starbucks_mafia]
RoCk Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 16/12/02
Posts: 2009

lmao

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#192044 - 21/12/07 04:44 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Mentality]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Mentality
If I remember correctly, your script was informing users when they were unbanned. We don't want you to do that, and you were asked a number of times to stop using it. You point blank refused, because you think you have a right to do what you want, just because certain other people have gotten away with using scripts. Apart from the fact that it's none of your business what other people do, the point is this: you were asked to stop doing something, you refused, you were banned. Welcome to IRC.


Bans have reasons. Unbans have reasons. I value them both.

Quite simply I believe everyone has the equal priviledge of knowing when they are unbanned from a channel they are not in. If the ban is removed, then they have every equal priviledge of joining if they want to. I do not consider this a distraction because it does not output publicly to the channel.

I also believe what goes on in private (such as in notice) is outside channel jurisdiction. I was once banned because I helped a user in p.m. rather than in the channel and foolishly let the channel know. That's another thing I forgot to add.

It is true that it is pretty meaningless to let someone on the blacklist (or ChanServ akick list) know that they are unbanned. But then, those bans don't need to be removed. People ban people for reasons. I hope people unban people for reasons as well. They should both be equally important.

-Neal.

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#192045 - 21/12/07 05:04 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
hixxy Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 06/09/05
Posts: 2876
Fail.

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#192048 - 21/12/07 05:56 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow]
RoCk Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 16/12/02
Posts: 2009

Hey this would make a good Festivus thread. grin

Does anybody have a pole?

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#192049 - 21/12/07 06:01 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Collective Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 10/12/02
Posts: 3138
Loc: London, UK
Informing trolls that they can now return for another round is not a good idea if you want to remain in any channel for a reasonable length of time. That is enough reason to ban you, regardless of any other channel policies.

Originally Posted By: "LostShadow"
Because we are in the Nick!Ident@Host format, where nick can be changed, and so can ident, it is meaningless to ban the ident, just as much as banning the nick.

Hosts can be changed too. Perhaps we should stop setting bans altogether, then.

While it's true that idents are not particularly difficult to change on most systems, not everyone knows how to change their ident, nor is everyone inclined towards spending their time evading bans. Most channel operators will set reasonably narrow bans and then widen them as needed, which is exactly as it should be.

To follow on from that, sometimes bans need to be placed that affect a large number of users; for example bans set against botnets or ban evaders. The removal of such bans is not an invitation for the offender to rejoin, but rather to allow legitimate users to join who would otherwise have been unable. Your script is was a disservice to those people, as well as the channel in general.

Quote:
I also believe what goes on in private (such as in notice) is outside channel jurisdiction. I was once banned because I helped a user in p.m. rather than in the channel and foolishly let the channel know. That's another thing I forgot to add.

Channels, particularly help channels, have a level of responsibility to their users. Would you suggest that we did not ban users who sent $decode() worms to our visitors? Helping in private is generally not permitted to ensure that the help given is infact helpful, and not malicious. Again, this is as it should be.

To conclude: Your opinions, beliefs, complaints and criticisms are both irrelevant and largely nonsensical. Enjoy your ban, I have a feeling it will be in place for quite some time.

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#192051 - 21/12/07 06:31 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Collective]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Collective
Hosts can be changed too. Perhaps we should stop setting bans altogether, then.


Call that slippery slope if you will?

Originally Posted By: Collective
While it's true that idents are not particularly difficult to change on most systems, not everyone knows how to change their ident, nor is everyone inclined towards spending their time evading bans. Most channel operators will set reasonably narrow bans and then widen them as needed, which is exactly as it should be.


Looks like you're talking about the difference betweel level 2 and level 4 bans. Leave level 3 bans out of it.

Originally Posted By: Collective
To follow on from that, sometimes bans need to be placed that affect a large number of users; for example bans set against botnets or ban evaders. The removal of such bans is not an invitation for the offender to rejoin, but rather to allow legitimate users to join who would otherwise have been unable. Your script is was a disservice to those people, as well as the channel in general.


You brought up another topic - bans that affect more than 1 person. I have not yet encountered that problem with Efnet #mIRC. I do have some sort of flood and repeat protection. Apparently, in past experience, every ban targetted affected 1 or 2 person. I don't think I'm capable of letting an entire botnet know they're unbanned, especially since the channel becomes well protected during mass joins.

Originally Posted By: Collective
Channels, particularly help channels, have a level of responsibility to their users. Would you suggest that we did not ban users who sent $decode() worms to our visitors?


No.

Originally Posted By: Collective
Helping in private is generally not permitted to ensure that the help given is infact helpful, and not malicious. Again, this is as it should be.


That's a very interesting reason you provided since it takes what bad things can happen as a result of why it is. I can come up with other equally excuses, such that I have pm'd other users for help and they did not try to backdoor me or any sort - should I report to the ops that someone is responding to me in pm? Althought what I meant is that I do the /whois follow and then assist them (particularly for cases where they need help with a bot and script for their channel). The best way I found to help someone with a channel bot or channel script is to join their channel.

-Neal.

Originally Posted By: Collective
To conclude: Your opinions, beliefs, complaints and criticisms are both irrelevant and largely nonsensical. Enjoy your ban, I have a feeling it will be in place for quite some time.


Anyways, I certainly can be up for a conversation of what can happen, althought I particularly find more importance on what does happen and what has happened.

That's kind of like, he can be an idiot, so he should be banned. But I differentiate between what happens and what possibilities can happen, despite maybe being interested of what can happen in theory. But I consider them to be separate things.

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#192052 - 21/12/07 06:52 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
Originally Posted By: LostShadow

Bans have reasons. Unbans have reasons. I value them both.

Quite simply I believe everyone has the equal priviledge of knowing when they are unbanned from a channel they are not in. If the ban is removed, then they have every equal priviledge of joining if they want to. I do not consider this a distraction because it does not output publicly to the channel.

I also believe what goes on in private (such as in notice) is outside channel jurisdiction. I was once banned because I helped a user in p.m. rather than in the channel and foolishly let the channel know. That's another thing I forgot to add.

It is true that it is pretty meaningless to let someone on the blacklist (or ChanServ akick list) know that they are unbanned. But then, those bans don't need to be removed. People ban people for reasons. I hope people unban people for reasons as well. They should both be equally important.

-Neal.


Hmm, this is the reason why people need a "shitlist" or perm ban people from a channel, if i get banned from a channel, then i take the hint and ether change the way i act, or i wont join that channel again, and a ban is set to stop people to join, but since the banlist only can store xx amount of bans you need to unban, if people did what they should do on irc "chat with others", then i don't think a ban would be placed so often, but more and more spammers and stupid kiddies that do wrong stuff on the channel force the op's on the channel to place a ban. i just love this tip of the way i found on a server i was on befor, and i belive the one that wrote it have a point:

I think that IRC would be a much nicer place if people would masturbate BEFORE joining.
_________________________
if ($me != tired) { return } | else { echo -a Get a pot of coffee now $+($me,.) }

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#192053 - 21/12/07 07:03 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta]
RoCk Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 16/12/02
Posts: 2009

Originally Posted By: sparta

I think that IRC would be a much nicer place if people would masturbate BEFORE joining.


That changed my IRC demeanor, now I can't keep my hands off myself. In fact.....

whistle

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#192054 - 21/12/07 07:40 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Mentality Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 5024
Loc: London, England
Unbans may well have reasons, but why are you sticking your nose in? Sometimes banning a troll and auto-unbanning after a couple of hours works, the troll forgets about the ban and moves on to some other channel or /quits until another day. It's not an invitation to return. And even if it was, what has it got to do with you? You have nothing to do with #mIRC's running. At all. Whether you think you have or not. We have a lot of perm bans set in our channel bot, but we don't want them to be sticky in order to not fill up the ban list. Again, what's it got to do with you?

What a bizarre thread.
_________________________
Mentality/Chris

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#192055 - 21/12/07 07:50 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Mentality]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
I'm Santa Claus - and remember, Santa Claus will always let you know when you're unbanned. Merry Christmas. Nothing personal - my script is for all channels on all networks.

And since I'm not staff - I give users the benefit of the doubt.

Benefit of the doubt: they're unbanned, let them know.
None: nothing.
Disadvantage of the doubt: n/a, or attempt/beg/request the ban to be longer if lifted.

My general service to the world.

Ho ho ho.

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#192056 - 21/12/07 08:04 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
CtrlAltDel Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 15/06/03
Posts: 994
It's unbelievable how bull-headed some people can be.

It's a simple concept, really. You can do what you want (notify of unbans), and they can do what they want (boot your hard-headed ass out of their channel).

Welcome to IRC grin

_________________________
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person. wink

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#192058 - 21/12/07 08:21 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow]
argv0 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/03
Posts: 3918
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
My reply:

1. You refused to do what you were told. You continue to refuse what you were told.

If you're fighting an op, that's reason enough for your removal from the channel. IRC isn't about fairness, it's about whether or not an op can stand you in their channel. If you're pissing an op off, you will be removed. And if you are doing it intentionally, you completely deserve it.

End of story.
_________________________
- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
- "Life is a pointer to an integer without a cast"

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#192059 - 21/12/07 08:24 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: argv0]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Now you're downgrading a help channel / official channel to the level of any other typical channel on IRC.

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#192060 - 21/12/07 08:29 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow]
argv0 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/03
Posts: 3918
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
No, I'm upgrading this to the fact that you're intentionally refusing to follow the stated rules and etiquette of standard IRC channels. Try your script on any other "official channel" and see how long you last.

It should also be noted that you chose to have this discussion in a public forum rather than first approaching an op privately on this issue, which only proves that you're complaining for the sake of it, making this conversation the most pointless waste of time. Complain away.

mIRC #efnet is not "official", by the way, we're merely enthusiasts helping out of our own good will. Ho ho ho.



_________________________
- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
- "Life is a pointer to an integer without a cast"

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#192062 - 21/12/07 08:34 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: argv0]
Bekar Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 503
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Not only have you been told the reason for your ban and ignored our request, you also have ban-evaded in the past, and seem to have a war-dialler, so whenever the ban is removed, you re-join immediately.

You can be pretty much assured, you will NEVER be allowed back in the channel as long as this sort of behaviour continues.

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#192063 - 21/12/07 08:35 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: argv0]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: argv0
No, I'm upgrading this to the fact that you're intentionally refusing to follow the stated rules and etiquette of standard IRC channels. Try your script on any other "official channel" and see how long you last.


I guess I could use a link, since you seem to be talking about something specific.

Originally Posted By: argv0
It should also be noted that you chose to have this discussion in a public forum rather than first approaching an op privately on this issue, which only proves that you're complaining for the sake of it, making this conversation the most pointless waste of time. Complain away.


Herbie doesn't talk. And nice conspiracy here - trying to get me to break an additional channel rule by private messaging an op. Note that there are several ops involved, 1 traditional IRC etiquette rule is (which you may not agree with me) is that any IRC op or channel op is responsible for their own bans and not others.

Originally Posted By: argv0
mIRC #efnet is not "official", by the way, we're merely enthusiasts helping out of our own good will. Ho ho ho.


It's a good thing I used the /. Had to be 1 or the other. Official in terms of Efnet? Most like not. Official to mIRC.com?

If you say Efnet #mIRC is as official as any other mIRC-help channel, I wouldn't have anything relevant to say.

-Neal.

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#192064 - 21/12/07 08:37 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: Bekar]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Bekar
Not only have you been told the reason for your ban and ignored our request, you also have ban-evaded in the past, and seem to have a war-dialler, so whenever the ban is removed, you re-join immediately.

You can be pretty much assured, you will NEVER be allowed back in the channel as long as this sort of behaviour continues.


Suppose anyone can be permanently banned for anything at any time. Meaning, there are no rational standards to justify whether a ban is set or not. Therefore, there is no action that a person can argue is justified because he or she believes that it is right. If they [the ops] believe that what they do is an acceptable means to decide what to do, they will ultimately have no choice but to accept that whatever they do can be whatever they want, as all they need is to say that they think it is the right thing to do. You can have no rational reply.

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#192066 - 21/12/07 09:10 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
Originally Posted By: LostShadow

any IRC op or channel op is responsible for their own bans and not others.


I believed that was the channel founder? or the one giving oper status? when I adding op's in my channels or give them oper status, then I let them know if they did something wrong, im a strong believer in give a reason for a ban/kick, not just kick a user without let him/her know why, same goes for the k-lines my opers set.
_________________________
if ($me != tired) { return } | else { echo -a Get a pot of coffee now $+($me,.) }

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#192067 - 21/12/07 09:17 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Right, Efnet #mIRC does not have services, or much hierarchy. Sure enough, in a channel with services, you can take it all up to the founder (or to a SOp if in conflict with another AOp or founder if conflict with a SOp).

And then an IRC op's admin.

Originally Posted By: sparta
Originally Posted By: LostShadow

any IRC op or channel op is responsible for their own bans and not others.


I believed that was the channel founder? or the one giving oper status? when I adding op's in my channels or give them oper status, then I let them know if they did something wrong, im a strong believer in give a reason for a ban/kick, not just kick a user without let him/her know why,


My point was you don't go to channel op B when you get banned by channel op A.

I was referring to a place with equal hierarchy, such that you would need staff to decide on things, rather than any 1 individual.

Originally Posted By: sparta
same goes for the k-lines my opers set.


That works real well with small networks, such that people know who the hub owner is. But not so well for large networks like Efnet, Dalnet, Webnet, and Undernet. Etc.

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#192068 - 21/12/07 09:20 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow]
argv0 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/03
Posts: 3918
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
Originally Posted By: LostShadow
I guess I could use a link, since you seem to be talking about something specific.


Standard etiquette rule: listen to what ops tell you.

Originally Posted By: LostShadow

And nice conspiracy here - trying to get me to break an additional channel rule by private messaging an op.


That isn't a conspiracy, it's again, standard etiquette. You're expected to act like a mature human being. When you have a problem with somebody in real life, you talk to them privately first before you take a bullhorn to your rooftop and start screaming about it, don't you?

Frankly, if you didn't just get the hint in me asking you to take this up privately, you must really be slow.

Quote:
Note that there are several ops involved, 1 traditional IRC etiquette rule is (which you may not agree with me) is that any IRC op or channel op is responsible for their own bans and not others.


And that is the case. It turns out, though, that you have made many ops equally responsible for your ban because of your constant troublemaking.

Quote:
It's a good thing I used the /. Had to be 1 or the other. Official in terms of Efnet? Most like not. Official to mIRC.com?


"Not official" means not official. Meaning, in plain english-- we are not the official channel. Pick any context you want, I just gave you the blanket statement.

The only official place for support is technically this forum.. the IRC channels have been setup by enthusiasts. Khaled doesn't check up on us, and we're not on any sort of payroll.. thats as unofficial as it can get.

We help people out of our own will to give others extra support for the client-- and as ops we only make the small request that people listen to us to our respective channel rules, be it on EFNet, Quakenet, Undernet, Dalnet, or some small network. These rules may vary from network to network and may sometimes vary from op to op, but you are free to leave if you do not like the rules imposed on you. You are *not*, however, free to continually annoy the ops by refusing to listen to their rules, however wrong you may think they are. This is a cultural thing, and applies not just to #mIRC on EFNet, but to all channels on all IRC networks, and I won't patronize you in explaining how this also applies to your real life. I'm hoping you already know that.
_________________________
- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
- "Life is a pointer to an integer without a cast"

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#192069 - 21/12/07 09:28 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: argv0]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: argv0
Originally Posted By: LostShadow

And nice conspiracy here - trying to get me to break an additional channel rule by private messaging an op.


That isn't a conspiracy, it's again, standard etiquette. You're expected to act like a mature human being. When you have a problem with somebody in real life, you talk to them privately first before you take a bullhorn to your rooftop and start screaming about it, don't you?

Frankly, if you didn't just get the hint in me asking you to take this up privately, you must really be slow.


I made an assumption - however off - I did not think a typical #mIRC op would want my 4 page complaint in their p.m. window. Hence a message board. Was I wrong?

Originally Posted By: argv0
Quote:
Note that there are several ops involved, 1 traditional IRC etiquette rule is (which you may not agree with me) is that any IRC op or channel op is responsible for their own bans and not others.


And that is the case. It turns out, though, that you have made many ops equally responsible for your ban because of your constant troublemaking.


Sounds like you've got some ideas/bringing on a slightly new topic - go on.

-Neal.

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#192070 - 21/12/07 09:29 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
This thread is getting a bit rediculous. Yes, I did state that I felt that Efnet isn't really the nicest network to visit, but in no way can I agree with you on anything you're saying, LostShadow. Even if some things you say are correct, the fact that you are blantantly ignoring the channel rules even after you know what they are, and you're stating here that you will continue to ignore them, makes everything else you have to say invalid even if it's legitimate.

Ops in ALL channels have the right to do what they wish, set whatever rules they like (even if they are stupid rules), kick/ban people if they want, etc. Only other ops, or higher levels if the network allows it, have any say in policing the ops themselves. If you don't like the rules, then don't visit the channel. DON'T keep visiting, evading bans, and ignoring the rules.

And as far as dealing with conflicts between a non-op and an op, yes, start with talking to the person who you're having the issue with. If you can't get anywhere there, then DO go and talk with another op (or another higher level person if the network supports it). If you get nowhere in the channel and the issue is network related rather than channel related, you can take it to an ircop. If you get nowhere there, or if it's only a channel related issue, then you're done. Drop it and move on.

As far as the issue with helping people in PM... I understand the idea behind not doing so to prevent malicious help, but at the same point, I have been helped before in #mIRC in PM and I give support in other channels via PM. I've gotten support in official scripting channels as well in PM and given support there in PM. Sure, someone could cause problems that way, but banning someone for helping in PM seems a bit too harsh to me. Still, as I said, the rules are there and it's the channel owner's and ops' choice of what rules they want to have. It doesn't matter what my opinion on the rules is. It also doesn't matter what your opinion is.

As a note, if you ran that script in a channel I owned or was opped in, I'd warn/kick/ban you as well.
_________________________
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#Invision on irc.irchighway.net

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#192071 - 21/12/07 09:39 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Riamus2]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Riamus2
but in no way can I agree with you on anything you're saying, LostShadow. Even if some things you say are correct, the fact that you are blantantly ignoring the channel rules even after you know what they are, and you're stating here that you will continue to ignore them, makes everything else you have to say invalid even if it's legitimate.

Ops in ALL channels have the right to do what they wish, set whatever rules they like (even if they are stupid rules), kick/ban people if they want, etc.


It probably didn't occur to you, but like "a typical IRC channel," when regarding rules and bans, Efnet #mIRC is a popularity contest. You are judged by whether you are liked or not when enforcing channel rules. The fact that a channel op dislikes you, is no encouragement that he will not look for a case where he wouldn't have done the same to someone he did like.

Argv[0] confirmed to me himself that the basis of enforcing channel rules is built on reputation. After he found out that the porno link pasted person he banned was Kniht, and unbanned, he did tell me after I asked him that it's about reputation.

This is why people like Mike` and logicIRCd are allowed to run a country locator script.

If you're not liked, then you will be given the disadvantage of the doubt, and rules can be enforced stricter on you. Your safety status in any channel is dependent on the discretion of any channel op.

-Neal.

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#192072 - 21/12/07 09:53 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
RoCk Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 16/12/02
Posts: 2009

Originally Posted By: LostShadow

Argv[0] confirmed to me himself that the basis of channel rules is built on reputation. After he found out that the porno link pasted person he banned was Kniht, and unbanned, he did tell me after I asked him that it's about reputation.



I think mostly it's about security and looking out for the users. You said yourself that this Kniht person that pasted the porn url was an op and was unbanned, well it's a pretty common channel rule that ops do not deop, kick or ban other ops, and besides that, it seems to me that if they know the person that is running the script, or pasting the url, or helping in private, then they also believe this person wouldn't do anything malicious to bring harm to an unsuspecting user. They don't know this of every other user on the channel so they can't have just anyone pasting a url to the channel because that's not safe. The same goes for helping in private and running scripts on the channel, it's just something that's reserved for ops and other people they know. The ops have the power to use their own discretion because they are known and trusted and responsible, which is probably why they were given the op status in the first place.

I really don't think it was your place to notify someone that their ban was lifted and they may re-join the channel and you were in the wrong and should have stopped when asked by the op. You're really showing the world here that you're pretty immature by dragging this all here as if anyone here can, or even is willing to do anything about it, or that anyone really cares at all that you feel you were done injustice. It's my opinion that you should probably grow up and start obeying the rules of the channels on which you have no power or just don't join them.


Edited by RoCk (21/12/07 10:07 PM)

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#192073 - 21/12/07 10:00 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: RoCk]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: RoCk
I think mostly it's about security and looking out for the users. You said yourself that this Kniht person that pasted the porn url was an op and was unbanned, well it's a pretty common channel rule that ops do not deop, kick or ban other ops, and besides that, it seems to me that if they know the person that is running the script, or pasting the url, or helping in private, then they also believe this person wouldn't do anything malicious to an unsuspecting user. They can't hjave just anyone pasting a url to the channel because that's not safe. Same for helping in private and running scripts on the channel, it's a right that's reserved for ops and other people they know.


Nice example. Here's mine.

I once joined a network where I knew most of the users from another network. But 1 IRC op there hated me - he akilled me for no reason at will. Everyday. Another IRC op, that actually liked me, decided to do something about it. He made me an IRC op. That way - I can no longer be akilled, as IRC ops don't akill each other. And the other oper was to deal with it.

Does the above story look like a solution to you? I hope not. I think it's a problem. That's exactly what I'm trying to go against.

Originally Posted By: RoCk
I really don't think it was your place to notify someone that their ban was lifted and they may re-join the channel and you were in the wrong and should have stopped when asked by the op. You're really showing the world here that you're pretty immature by dragging this all here as if anyone here can, or even is willing to do anything about it. It's my opinion that you should probably grow up and start obeying the rules of channels on which you have no power.


As it's for all networks and all channels, none of them have to be my place to be involved with - it's a freelance involvement I do, sure enough, you can't have it both ways, you'll have a side that likes it and a side that doesn't like it.

RE: by dragging this all here as if anyone here can, or even is willing to do anything about it.

2.) No one has to do anything about it.

-Neal.

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#192074 - 21/12/07 10:03 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
maybe /nick newnick and a new ident would help? if you behave wink
_________________________
if ($me != tired) { return } | else { echo -a Get a pot of coffee now $+($me,.) }

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#192075 - 21/12/07 10:12 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta]
Mpot Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 24/04/07
Posts: 228
Er... is the Efnet #mIRC a good place I could go for scripting help?

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#192076 - 21/12/07 10:12 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta]
argv0 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/03
Posts: 3918
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
Originally Posted By: sparta
maybe /nick newnick and a new ident would help? if you behave

A change in behaviour is all he needs, all of the ops from #mirc efnet have hinted at that on this very thread.
_________________________
- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
- "Life is a pointer to an integer without a cast"

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#192077 - 21/12/07 10:14 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Mpot]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Mpot
Er... is the Efnet #mIRC a good place I could go for scripting help?


I have found that to be the best place for the Efnet network.

For Dalnet, there's #scripting, but newbs are looked down on.

For Undernet, there's #mircscripting.

For Webnet/WebChat, there's #help.mIRC.

Edit: keep in mind, for whole-script helps on IRC, best to use that + stuff like pastebin and nomorepasting.com, etc., sites.

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#192078 - 21/12/07 10:15 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
argv0 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/03
Posts: 3918
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
@ Lostshadow:

It is indeed about reputation. You know how users like Mike` and Kniht gained their reputation? By becoming liked. You know how they did that? They dealt without the benefit of the doubt, behaved, and didn't argue with ops about their rules. You're walking down the exact opposite path.
_________________________
- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
- "Life is a pointer to an integer without a cast"

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#192079 - 21/12/07 10:17 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: argv0]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
That's fine - I'm someone that can have an opinion and willing to "debate" the logic of a rule or event.

-Neal.

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#192080 - 21/12/07 10:22 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
argv0 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/03
Posts: 3918
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
You can have your opinions, but they're unlikely to affect our rules. Save your breath for the debate. Again, if you don't like them, feel free to try another network's #mIRC.

Also, what RoCk said was 100% accurate. I unbanned Kniht because I usually don't ban regulars off the bat. Keep in mind that while you assume you know the whole story, you should also realize that anytime a reg does something wrong they are informed about it-- except unlike you, we actually talk to them about it in private so as not to make it into a whole comotion. You should also realize that these regulars learn from these mistakes, and usually don't repeat them (intentionally)-- again unlike you.
_________________________
- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
- "Life is a pointer to an integer without a cast"

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#192085 - 21/12/07 11:51 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
Originally Posted By: LostShadow

It probably didn't occur to you, but like "a typical IRC channel," when regarding rules and bans, Efnet #mIRC is a popularity contest. You are judged by whether you are liked or not when enforcing channel rules. The fact that a channel op dislikes you, is no encouragement that he will not look for a case where he wouldn't have done the same to someone he did like.


I don't see your point. As I stated, enforcing rules is completely up to the ops in any channel and they can do so in whatever way they like because it is THEIR channel. Other ops/admins/etc can choose to discipline other ops if things get out of hand, but other than that, they can do whatever they choose to. Because it is their channel and their right. If it's all about popularity, so what? That's their choice. That doesn't give you the right to abuse the rules.

I think this is a good time to see the topic locked as there isn't a debate or discussion even going on here... it's all just flaming #mIRC.
_________________________
Invision Support
#Invision on irc.irchighway.net

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#192086 - 22/12/07 12:10 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Riamus2]
Bekar Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 503
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I don't think it's really about popularity. It's more about trust.

On EFNet's #mIRC there are many regulars who help out, who are happy to abide by the rules. Sure, some push those rules, and are pushed back if they overstep their boundaries. They've been around long enough to show that they are responsible and responsive to comment.

Trust is gained in this manner.

You on the other hand stepped in, pushed the rules, ignored comments, and thus any possible credibility or trust was destroyed. When asked to stop this behaviour, you ignored the requestor and continued. You didn't try to get along with the community; you only tried to push your own agenda.

So in order to limit the interruption you were causing, you were kicked and banned. When these bans were removed, you came back in and continued your previous behaviour unchanged. Thus you were put onto a permanent ban list. As EFNet doesn't have services, most such bans are removed every few hours so as not to fill up ban lists. When this temporary removal occurred, you charged back in, and were thus put straight back on the ban list.

These bans will now no longer be removed for any reason. Your behaviour and attitude are not welcome.

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#192087 - 22/12/07 02:08 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow]
genius_at_work Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 1741
This seems like a totally pointless thread.

@OP:
IRC channel operators are not required to be fair in ANY way. There are no laws in IRC channels. Any moral or ethical decisions are by choice only. The 'higher' level ops (channel founders, etc) may choose to enforce their own consequences for ops who disobey the channel's guidelines, but that is not a requirement either. You are in their channel, and thus are required to either do as they say (follow the rules) or leave (whether by choice or otherwise).

The rules laid out in a channel are 'general guidelines' that were created by the channel's ops. As a result, those rules can be created, modified, or removed without any notice to you or anyone else. The rules do not have to be fair, or at all logical. For example, if I (or any other op) chose, I could ban you simply because I dislike nicknames that contain an 'h'. I'd not be required to provide any explanation of any type to you, nor would I have to ever unban you if I so chose.

In most cases, channel rules are quite fair and logical. As several ops of the channel in question have stated, you were specifically and repeatedly told of a rule (whether it previously existed or was created on the spot for you) and you refused to abide by that rule. As a result of your refusal to follow that rule, you were banned. It is as simple as that. There is no point in complaining about it, and evading will just cause the ops to change a potential temp-ban into a permanent ban instantly.

-genius_at_work


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#192088 - 22/12/07 03:39 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Riamus2]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Riamus2
As I stated, enforcing rules is completely up to the ops in any channel and they can do so in whatever way they like because it is THEIR channel.


Point number 1.

Originally Posted By: Riamus2
Other ops/admins/etc can choose to discipline other ops if things get out of hand, but other than that, they can do whatever they choose to. Because it is their channel and their right.


Point number 2.

You 1st talk about enforcing rules is completely up to the ops, and 2., they can do whatever they choose.

Now of course, that doesn't differentiate between doing whatever you want, and doing whatever you want in spirit of the channel rules. Because in 1 example, enforcing channel rules is irrelevant.

Originally Posted By: Riamus2
If it's all about popularity, so what? That's their choice. That doesn't give you the right to abuse the rules.


There are no rights to abuse rules.

We acknowledged that I didn't break the "no scripts rule" either because it does not exist, hence why certain people can run a country locator script, or, that it does exist, but there are exceptions to individuals, and I am not 1 of them, as a result of earning respect, which is why other people can run other scripts.

And as far as I think about building a reputation, the thing is, you will have to build it to all the active ops. Just because I could be personal friends with 1 op such that he wouldn't ban me for running a country locator script doesn't mean another op who does not know me won't.

-Neal.

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#192089 - 22/12/07 03:44 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Bekar]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Bekar
I don't think it's really about popularity. It's more about trust.


Like reputation - that might be a better wording

Originally Posted By: Bekar
On EFNet's #mIRC there are many regulars who help out, who are happy to abide by the rules. Sure, some push those rules, and are pushed back if they overstep their boundaries. They've been around long enough to show that they are responsible and responsive to comment.

Trust is gained in this manner.

You on the other hand stepped in, pushed the rules, ignored comments, and thus any possible credibility or trust was destroyed. When asked to stop this behaviour, you ignored the requestor and continued. You didn't try to get along with the community; you only tried to push your own agenda.

So in order to limit the interruption you were causing, you were kicked and banned. When these bans were removed, you came back in and continued your previous behaviour unchanged. Thus you were put onto a permanent ban list.


(Response to the underlined bold): Nope, my permanent bans were not removed. I flew in an airplane from Chicago to San Diego. I recall looking at the ban list to see my previous host still in existence.

All this talk about how 1 must achieve "trust" to get additional priviledges is what I am somewhat against - as I believe in giving everyone equal opportunity regardless of how well I know them.

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#192090 - 22/12/07 03:52 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: genius_at_work]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: genius_at_work

@OP:
IRC channel operators are not required to be fair in ANY way. There are no laws in IRC channels. Any moral or ethical decisions are by choice only. The 'higher' level ops (channel founders, etc) may choose to enforce their own consequences for ops who disobey the channel's guidelines, but that is not a requirement either. You are in their channel, and thus are required to either do as they say (follow the rules) or leave (whether by choice or otherwise).


Which I agree to every extent about IRC channels. Except I wasn't criticizing IRC channels in general. That would be something else.

Quote:
The rules laid out in a channel are 'general guidelines' that were created by the channel's ops. As a result, those rules can be created, modified, or removed without any notice to you or anyone else. The rules do not have to be fair, or at all logical. For example, if I (or any other op) chose, I could ban you simply because I dislike nicknames that contain an 'h'. I'd not be required to provide any explanation of any type to you, nor would I have to ever unban you if I so chose.


And now while we're on the subject about IRC channels that do have rules, then we can discuss a particular channel and a particular rule.

Quote:
In most cases, channel rules are quite fair and logical. As several ops of the channel in question have stated, you were specifically and repeatedly told of a rule (whether it previously existed or was created on the spot for you) and you refused to abide by that rule. As a result of your refusal to follow that rule, you were banned. It is as simple as that. There is no point in complaining about it, and evading will just cause the ops to change a potential temp-ban into a permanent ban instantly.


Oh yes, I love rules that are made on the spot! This is an example where, if I want you gone, I can make a new rule for your situation and say you broke it. Hence the reasoning.

A lot of your reasons seems to be as strong as the other way around.

I.e.

"Any op can ban you for any reason."
Same as "any regular user can evade any ban for any reason."

"I don't need a reason to ban you."
"I don't need a reason to evade your ban."

Etc.

-Neal.

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#192093 - 22/12/07 04:36 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow]
argv0 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/03
Posts: 3918
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
Originally Posted By: LostShadow
"Any op can ban you for any reason."
Same as "any regular user can evade any ban for any reason."


This is the logic that justified your original ban. I suggest you stop digging your grave, it's deep enough.
_________________________
- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
- "Life is a pointer to an integer without a cast"

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#192096 - 22/12/07 07:16 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: argv0]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: argv0
This is the logic that justified your original ban. I suggest you stop digging your grave, it's deep enough.


"Any op can ban you for any reason."

This goes back to 1 of my original points.

This means anyone can be permanently banned for anything at any time. Meaning, there are no rational standards to justify whether a ban is set or not. Therefore, there is no action that an op can argue is justified because he or she believes that it is right. If the ops believe that what they do is an acceptable means to decide what to do, they will ultimately have no choice but to accept that whatever they do can be whatever they want, as all they need is to say that they think it is the right thing to do.

Sounds a lot like faith?

That is certainly something that I would be against when justifying such decisions. And since this is serendipity logic we're talking about - there are no rational replies.

2 particular rules I dislike. I've collected them from real experiences. The "any op can ban you for any reason" falls under 1 of them.

They are:

1.Do not argue with the ops.
2.Do not piss the ops off.

My whole philosophy on rules includes rules that can be verified to be broken.

Idea: when enforcing a rule, there has to be evidence (proof) that a rule is broken.

An example of this is a caps rule. Suppose a random arbitrary number like 80% is the limit.

Then, a script can be written to calculate the percentage of caps.

But a rule that fails the accuracy of this, is the do not piss the ops off.

"Oh, he said 83.33% caps." "Clearly he broke a rule."

The above proof can be shown, calculated, etc.

"Oh? He pissed an op off?"
"Hey, I'm an op, I'm pissed off."

A rule such as the above would need rational standards. And quite contrarily, how do you prove that you were pissed off? Why, relying on others that have faith that you are right when you say you are pissed off (as you can easily lie about it). This goes back to my horrible 'f' word: faith.

This is why the "do not piss ops off" rule fails my book - it needs to be specific. We like specific examples and specific situations.

Now for the previous: no arguing with the ops.

The problem with this rule is that it fails under some non-ending loop.

*Ban*
*Kick*
(Later)
*Join*
"Hey, why did you ban kick me? What did I do?"
"No reason."
"But I didn't break any rules!"
"I'm going to ban you now though."
"Why?"
"Arguing with ops."

If you think I'm making this up, the 2nd channel I've been to on IRC has that rule in 2001, and still does today. The "no arguing with ops" rule means you can argue about an unfair channel ban, but make it eligible for a channel ban by thus breaking that rule. Clearly I find that example rule also a bad 1.

And I think it is a good thing that police officers do not go around arresting people just because they feel like it, or have faith that you committed a crime without proof or evidence. Just as much as I think it's a good thing judges don't go around approving you're guilty of a crime just because they feel like it. Which is why I like to live in a world with rational standards, regardless of how all the sexual and economic favors you can do to gain up.

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#192097 - 22/12/07 07:32 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Rand Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 28/02/05
Posts: 342
"Cry more noob." seems quite fitting here.

Just because you can do something, does not mean that you should.


There's absolutely no reason for you to notify other people that they're unbanned. That does nothing more than invite trouble. Your reasoning behind doing it is quite pointless too. People don't need to know if they're unbanned or not, if the ops wanted them to know, the ops would message them and tell them.

I'd probably ban you too if I had to ask you more than once to disable a script like that.

PS: Life isn't fair, nor is IRC. Get used to it.

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#192098 - 22/12/07 07:36 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Rand]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Nothing wrong with crying.

The "life isn't fair" reason is pretty redundant, from a subjective point of view.

Because it doesn't distinguish between purposely leaving life unfair, and trying to improve. I could do considerable damage to someone, and use the "life is not fair" excuse, but that doesn't justify my doing.

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#192099 - 22/12/07 07:38 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
zack Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 266
Loc: Australia
07:16.57/p <@zack^> FireHose go away
07:16.57/p <jarryd> FireHose go away
07:16.58/p <Neal`> FireHose go away

Your scripts suck, Neal.
_________________________
You won't like it when I get angry.

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#192100 - 22/12/07 07:54 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Rand Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 28/02/05
Posts: 342
There's a difference between crying, and going on a forum shouting about the injustices that have been dealt to you. After reading your posts, I've concluded that your logic is flawed, your comparisons aren't very good. As you've been told, if you don't like it, leave.

Also, as zack mentioned, you never seem to get rid of your terrible scripts.

Quote:

[09/12/07 | 09:53.17] * Rand slaps Neal` around a bit with a large myndzi- and wonders idly if Neal` disabled his script for this channel yet.
[09/12/07 | 09:53.19] * myndzi- slaps Neal` around a bit with a large myndzi- and wonders idly if Neal` disabled his script for this channel yet.
[09/12/07 | 09:53.19] * Neal` slaps Neal` around a bit with a large myndzi- and wonders idly if Neal` disabled his script for this channel yet.
[09/12/07 | 09:53.19] * Unimatrix0 sets mode: +b *!*Laptop@*.hsd1.il.comcast.net
[09/12/07 | 09:53.19] *** Nicks affected from bans: Neal`
[09/12/07 | 09:53.19] *** Neal` was kicked by Unimatrix0 ([exp\yet.] This yet. abuse incident will be reported.)

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#192101 - 22/12/07 08:02 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Rand]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Rand
There's a difference between crying, and going on a forum shouting about the injustices that have been dealt to you.


What are the differences?

Regarding your "life isn't fair," what is that supposed to mean? Life in the individual level? Or for the universe?

How do you know life isn't fair? I think people who say "life isn't fair" apparently don't view both sides of the story.

-Neal.

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#192102 - 22/12/07 08:45 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Rand Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 28/02/05
Posts: 342
This is another reason you probably have issues. You make too much out of some things, and too little out of others. You really are hopeless.

Born blind, death, mute, deformities, STDs.
Living with cancer, diseases, lost limbs, scars, poverty.
Losing a parent, a sibling, a child, a friend.

Not being able to go to a concert, because you were mugged on the way there. Recieving dirty looks, because of the way you dress at church. Being scolded for things you did not do. Paying for a crime you never committed. Dying for a cause you did not believe in. Being left out, because you simply did not fit in.

Did I list enough?

Crying is one thing, you can mope all you want in your own privacy. But going onto a forum and posting things just to gain recognition for your beliefs, when you should be confronting the ops, isn't going to sit well with people.

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#192103 - 22/12/07 08:46 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
TropNul Offline
Babel fish

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 89
You continuously talk avout being rational and objective while you're not even rational nor objective yourself throughout all this thread. You think you'll change IRC (or even the world) by thinking only about your oneself ?

As from here, the thread is in a whole, Caduque !

Next time, please think twice or even thrice before even thinking you shall think. Because as it is here, your opinions are completely subjective and irrationnal.

As I know you'll refute my post irrationnally and subjectively, this will please me to see this reply. lol. There's atleast something entertaining to laugh at on this board. Your thread!.

Cordialement smile
_________________________
tropnul

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#192104 - 22/12/07 08:53 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Rand]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Rand
Born blind, death, mute, deformities, STDs.
Living with cancer, diseases, lost limbs, scars,


Those are all biological disadvantages of life. Such as the role of genes. While you are right on those extent, my reference was how society plays a role in the fairness of.. life. This means interactions between humans.

Originally Posted By: Rand
poverty.
Losing a parent, a sibling, a child, a friend.


And then these are all coincidences that can happen in life. Take a look at chance.

Originally Posted By: Rand
Not being able to go to a concert, because you were mugged on the way there. Recieving dirty looks, because of the way you dress at church. Being scolded for things you did not do. Paying for a crime you never committed. Dying for a cause you did not believe in. Being left out, because you simply did not fit in.


Take a look at cause and effect.

Originally Posted By: Rand
Did I list enough?

Crying is one thing, you can mope all you want in your own privacy. But going onto a forum and posting things just to gain recognition for your beliefs, when you should be confronting the ops, isn't going to sit well with people.


My whole point was on the fairness between people.

Examples.

-A CEO pays a white employer more money than a black employer of the same intelligence, education, etc.
-Black person got charged with a felony while a white person got charged with a misdemeanor even though they committed the same crime and in same jurisdictions.
-Females on IRC get harassed for pics while males on IRC do not.
-A personal favorite of mine. Where it's a crime (felony in some jurisdictions) to wear a bullet-vest for protection during a crime scene. Whereas police officers can wear 1 anytime. And then, if you're not a police officer, being charged with that crime could mean not becoming a police officer, where as a police officer you have the right to wear a bullet vest anyways.

All your talk about how some species fluorish while others go extinct - that's life, no? But I'm not so much interested in dealing with biological fairness. Or that people born in a powerful country do better than people born in Africa. I'm also less complaining about historical fairness.

-Neal.

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#192105 - 22/12/07 08:58 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: TropNul]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: TropNul
You continuously talk avout being rational and objective while you're not even rational nor objective yourself throughout all this thread.


Why.. lecture on!

Quote:
You think you'll change IRC (or even the world) by thinking only about your oneself ?


No - this is a matter regarding a public channel. I don't see how it should involve the world or all of IRC. Perhaps if all the world or IRC have been to that channel..

Quote:
As from here, the thread is in a whole, Caduque !

Next time, please think twice or even thrice before even thinking you shall think. Because as it is here, your opinions are completely subjective and irrationnal.

As I know you'll refute my post irrationnally and subjectively, this will please me to see this reply. lol. There's atleast something entertaining to laugh at on this board. Your thread!.

Cordialement smile


But we also like premises that lead to the conclusion.

I don't mind having a sense of humor interpreted by others.

-Neal.

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#192106 - 22/12/07 09:03 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Rand Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 28/02/05
Posts: 342
Cancer and diseases can be linked to food, medication, stress levels, and many other things.

Life will never be fair. People can and do get treated fairly between people at times, but this is simply impossible on an every case basis. Until individuality is completely erased, life will never be fair.

Last post in this thread, for me.

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#192107 - 22/12/07 09:04 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
I must ask, if someone say to you "I don't like you, and i don't want you in my home", do you still go to visit there? and if they don't open the door for you, then you going in true the window? the same goes for the channels, if they don't want you there, then you should not go there. by change host and enter there anyway will only get your "new" host banned as well. And sit here and argue about it i don't think will help you get back in, only the way you act to others and how you behave will help you.
_________________________
if ($me != tired) { return } | else { echo -a Get a pot of coffee now $+($me,.) }

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#192108 - 22/12/07 09:09 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Rand]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
But to say life isn't fair implies life has problems, or can be improved. And that (in my opinion at least) says life is significant.

And who is to say anything in life matters. Or in other words - the fact that living organisms find themselves significant doesn't mean they are. It doesn't matter whether you existed or not, just as much as stuff goes around in the universe or not.

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#192109 - 22/12/07 09:11 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: sparta
I must ask, if someone say to you "I don't like you, and i don't want you in my home", do you still go to visit there?


And if you do, consequences can be held. Such as violating a no trespassing law.

Originally Posted By: sparta
and if they don't open the door for you, then you going in true the window? the same goes for the channels, if they don't want you there, then you should not go there. by change host and enter there anyway will only get your "new" host banned as well. And sit here and argue about it i don't think will help you get back in, only the way you act to others and how you behave will help you.


You're comparing private homes to public channels.

The equivalent would be a public building run by a staff. And 1 staff member could tell 1 individual he does not want him there.

-Neal.

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#192111 - 22/12/07 09:27 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
Quote:
You're comparing private homes to public channels.


The channel belong to the users on it. without the users the channels aren't anything. and if some users can't follow the rules, then they get forced out from the channel.
_________________________
if ($me != tired) { return } | else { echo -a Get a pot of coffee now $+($me,.) }

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#192112 - 22/12/07 09:30 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: sparta
The channel belong to the users on it. without the users the channels aren't anything. and if some users can't follow the rules, then they get forced out from the channel.


And on the contrary, the channel belongs to the ops. The amount of regular user population isn't significant. If all the regular users left and all was left were the ops - well, that wouldn't mean anything different.

-Neal.

The following below is useless text.

And the phrase goes on, the channel belongs to the IRC ops/admins of Efnet. They can come in and do whatever they want. The channel belongs to Hardy - the CEO of Efnet.

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#192113 - 22/12/07 10:01 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
if it's so bad, change network, you don't need to hang on efnet, but if a user can't behave, then the network or opers don't matter, the user will get the same problem where ever he goes..
_________________________
if ($me != tired) { return } | else { echo -a Get a pot of coffee now $+($me,.) }

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#192114 - 22/12/07 11:24 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: MA, USA
Originally Posted By: LostShadow
You're comparing private homes to public channels.

The equivalent would be a public building run by a staff. And 1 staff member could tell 1 individual he does not want him there.


Think of it more like a public building that has security in it (ops) and the security (ops) tell you you're not allowed to return because you were causing trouble. They have every right to prevent you from returning.

It doesn't matter what you think. Ops can do whatever they want to. Period. Nothing you say can or will change that on ANY channel. If you don't like how a channel is run, go somewhere else. Don't start bashing things in a public forum for no reason. And, like others have said, you're just digging your grave deeper... everything you say is making you sound worse and worse and making everyone completely certain that you should have been banned regardless of the circumstances.

Btw, I don't know the rules there and there may not even be a rule specific to not running any kind of scripts in the channel. Or, they may allow ops and/or voices to do so. However, your specific script was a very bad script to be running in ANY channel and there is no reason why you should be allowed to run that unban notification script regardless of any other script-related rules.
_________________________
Invision Support
#Invision on irc.irchighway.net

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#192120 - 22/12/07 03:32 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Riamus2]
RoCk Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 16/12/02
Posts: 2009

This seems like trying to drive a nail into concrete with a sponge.

~ Edit ~
I think LostShadow could really help the IRC community by creating a channel named #Complaints, then users who feel that they were treated unjustly can go there to complain to him and he would make them feel better by saying "yeah, yeah... YEAH" and then threaten the offending channel with legal action. He could be of real service to some.


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#192125 - 22/12/07 05:39 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow]
genius_at_work Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 1741
Quote:

"Any op can ban you for any reason."

"Do not argue with the ops."

"Do not piss the ops off."



Those are 100% valid rules if the ops of a channel choose to use them. Just because you don't like those rules, doesn't mean they can't be used in that channel as justification for banning you. The simple fact is, that the ops do not need any reason or proof for banning you. It is their channel and they can do whatever they want in their channel, and it has nothing to do with faith.

For example: I don't agree with the 100km/h (60MPH) speed limit on the highway near my house. I'm not required to obey that speed limit. However, if I choose to speed, and I get caught, the fact that I don't agree with the law is irrelevent, and I will still get a speeding ticket. If I then pay that ticket and choose to continue speeding after warnings and punishment have been given, then I will encur more severe punishments (loss of driving licence). To relate more back to your complaint, if I happened to be friends with one of the police officers who pulled me over for speeding slightly over the speed limit, that officer may choose to give me only a warning. But why would one person get a ticket, and another get a warning? The answer is discretion. It is up to the officer to choose whether to warn or ticket.

Now, I know you will point out that speeding is a measurable quality, and you are correct on that point. So that example would more closely correspond to your 83% caps statement. A more subjective example, keeping with the driving example, would be 'dangerous driving'. There is no 'danger-ometer'.

One point in your complaint, that I noticed, is that you are transforming a very specific case into an excessively broad statement.

Quote:

...channel I've been to on IRC has that rule in 2001...



So? That channel has nothing to do with the channel in question, nor any other channel on any IRC network anywhere.

Quote:

Idea: when enforcing a rule, there has to be evidence (proof) that a rule is broken.


That is a very noble idea, and I encourage you to employ such a theory on a channel that you are an op and/or founder.


-
Anyway, I have other things to do today, so I won't spend hours typing in this thread. I probably left some of my statements half completed, but I honestly don't care.

-genius_at_work

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#192130 - 22/12/07 07:54 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: genius_at_work]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
I note several fallacies in question going around. I started this topic about Efnet #mIRC. Not a typical channel in general.

I'm looking for answers for Efnet #mIRC
Efnet #mIRC is an IRC channel.
Therefore, here's the answers for an IRC channel!

Call it the opposite of division fallacy?

Now, according to /list, the 'mode' of IRC channels probably has 1 user. Matter fact, most troll channels do not have a message board affiliated or a rules page or anything. And Efnet #mIRC is not a troll channel.

Now, suppose a channel (for whatever reason), had rules. Posted rules. I suppose if a channel had rules, 1 could argue the logic of it, or argue whether a rule was broken or not. Then, the answers could be "Oh, I see how I broke my rule now, my bad," or, "Oh, I see you didn't break the rule. *Unban.*"

An example of this is a caps rule, such as 80%.

"Hi, why did I get banned? I only said 75% caps. Rule was 80% minimum."
"No, you said 83.33%, here's my reasoning proof."
"Oh, okay, I now see how you took into consideration spaces, periods, commas, and exclamation marks. I indeed did say > 80% caps."

Anyways, about 3 people that posted on the thread are the appeal to authority, as only about 3 of them were Efnet #mIRC ops.

I particularly got 3 answers from 2 ops, argv0 (argv[0]) and Bekar.

They were "reputation" and "being liked," from argv0, and about "trust," from Bekar. The other op was Mentality. There might be other ops with other relevant stuff to add.

And apparently, almost everyone else that posted is not affiliated with the channel, whatever anyone else had to say about "IRC channels in general" - well, they certainly are free to post, but rather can be meaningless to me. Because we like specific cases and specific situations.

-Neal.

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#192131 - 22/12/07 08:03 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: genius_at_work]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: genius_at_work
Quote:

"Any op can ban you for any reason."

"Do not argue with the ops."

"Do not piss the ops off."



Those are 100% valid rules if the ops of a channel choose to use them. Just because you don't like those rules, doesn't mean they can't be used in that channel as justification for banning you. The simple fact is, that the ops do not need any reason or proof for banning you. It is their channel and they can do whatever they want in their channel, and it has nothing to do with faith.

For example: I don't agree with the 100km/h (60MPH) speed limit on the highway near my house. I'm not required to obey that speed limit. However, if I choose to speed, and I get caught, the fact that I don't agree with the law is irrelevent, and I will still get a speeding ticket. If I then pay that ticket and choose to continue speeding after warnings and punishment have been given, then I will encur more severe punishments (loss of driving licence). To relate more back to your complaint, if I happened to be friends with one of the police officers who pulled me over for speeding slightly over the speed limit, that officer may choose to give me only a warning. But why would one person get a ticket, and another get a warning? The answer is discretion. It is up to the officer to choose whether to warn or ticket.

Now, I know you will point out that speeding is a measurable quality, and you are correct on that point. So that example would more closely correspond to your 83% caps statement. A more subjective example, keeping with the driving example, would be 'dangerous driving'. There is no 'danger-ometer'.


Comparing a "60 mph speed limit" rule is not equivalent to a "do not argue with ops." rule. It would be equivalent to no flooding more than 6 lines a second or something. On the contrary, a "do not argue with ops" rule is equivalent to "do not argue with police officer" rule.

Quote:
One point in your complaint, that I noticed, is that you are transforming a very specific case into an excessively broad statement.

Quote:

...channel I've been to on IRC has that rule in 2001...



So? That channel has nothing to do with the channel in question, nor any other channel on any IRC network anywhere.

Quote:

Idea: when enforcing a rule, there has to be evidence (proof) that a rule is broken.


That is a very noble idea, and I encourage you to employ such a theory on a channel that you are an op and/or founder.


-
Anyway, I have other things to do today, so I won't spend hours typing in this thread. I probably left some of my statements half completed, but I honestly don't care.

-genius_at_work


Basically, I was just referencing that it was a rule based on a channel in real life on IRC, not completely made up. (Not that it matters.)

-Neal.

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#192132 - 22/12/07 08:05 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: RoCk]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: RoCk
~ Edit ~
I think LostShadow could really help the IRC community by creating a channel named #Complaints, then users who feel that they were treated unjustly can go there to complain to him and he would make them feel better by saying "yeah, yeah... YEAH" and then threaten the offending channel with legal action. He could be of real service to some.



Threaten legal action? Oh no, - if no law is broken on IRC, it would be meaningless to make legal action threats. Such a channel would not be ideal on Efnet - Efnet doesn't have many teens and children.

-Neal.

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#192134 - 22/12/07 08:33 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
RoCk Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 16/12/02
Posts: 2009

Originally Posted By: LostShadow

Threaten legal action? Oh no, - if no law is broken on IRC, it would be meaningless to make legal action threats. Such a channel would not be ideal on Efnet - Efnet doesn't have many teens and children.


It was a joke. Laugh.


* RoCk takes one more whack at the nail...

Originally Posted By: LostShadow

I note several fallacies in question going around. I started this topic about Efnet #mIRC. Not a typical channel in general.


But see, the point is that Efnet #mIRC IS just a typical IRC channel. It is NOT an official mIRC channel, it is owned essentially by the ops that run it since they hold the power to control it. Regular users (you) have no rights on said channel, you may be kicked/banned for whatever reason(s) the op(s) may or may not have, and yes they may treat you unfairly (in your mind), that was the right given to them when they were made an op, a power which you (regular users) do not have. Either deal with it or just don't join the channel.

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#192136 - 22/12/07 10:10 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow]
Bekar Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 503
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Do you perhaps mean these rules?

Some form of these rules has been on our website for many years (since approximately 1996), but admittadly just recently the link to them has dissapeared.

We're working to restore the original layout as it is.

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#192137 - 22/12/07 10:23 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: RoCk]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: RoCk
But see, the point is that Efnet #mIRC IS just a typical IRC channel. It is NOT an official mIRC channel, it is owned essentially by the ops that run it since they hold the power to control it. Regular users (you) have no rights on said channel, you may be kicked/banned for whatever reason(s) the op(s) may or may not have, and yes they may treat you unfairly (in your mind), that was the right given to them when they were made an op, a power which you (regular users) do not have. Either deal with it or just don't join the channel.


I guess the question next to ask is - what is a typical channel.

Does a typical channel have only 1 attribute? If a typical channel has only 1 attribute, and all channels are typical channels, then all channels have the same attribute. Personally, I don't think it works that way. I think there are too many indifferent attributes that make up a channel. I apparently don't see in comparing a channel like Dalnet #Windows95 as opposed to #Stop.Whoising.Me.Bitch and finding a lot in common.

-Neal.

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#192138 - 22/12/07 10:34 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
starbucks_mafia Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2962
Loc: Norwich, UK
Quote:
I guess the question next to ask is - what is a typical channel.

Does a typical channel have only 1 attribute? If a typical channel has only 1 attribute, and all channels are typical channels, then all channels have the same attribute. Personally, I don't think it works that way. I think there are too many indifferent attributes that make up a channel. I apparently don't see in comparing a channel like Dalnet #Windows95 as opposed to #Stop.Whoising.Me and finding a lot in common.

What the [censored] are you talking about?

IRC is IRC. There is only ever one true rule: Those with power will use and abuse it. Those without power have to take it unless they can convince someone with more power to do something about it.

And so to apply this to your situation:

The channel ops have power on that that channel. You don't. They banned you, now you have two options: Accept it or try and get someone with more power to step in. From your little performance here on the forums and the general attitude you have it seems you won't get another channel op to help you out. I'm also 100% certain that no EFNet IRC Op would help you with a trivial channel matter. Neither Khaled nor anybody on this forum can help you because as far as I can tell they really don't have anything to do with that channel. So accept your situation and stop bitching on a forum that has nothing to do with your problem and whose users (or at least me and everyone else who has responded to this thread so far) don't care one iota about it.

There have been 70 posts now going round in circles of people trying to explain that nobody here can or will do anything to help you and that by the sounds of it the ops of the channel were entirely justified in their actions. Not that it would matter if they weren't - your problem would still be irrelevant to this forum and would still be just the nature of IRC in action.

Grow up.
_________________________
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.

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#192139 - 22/12/07 10:44 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: starbucks_mafia]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: starbucks_mafia
The channel ops have power on that that channel. You don't. They banned you, now you have two options: Accept it or try and get someone with more power to step in. From your little performance here on the forums and the general attitude you have it seems you won't get another channel op to help you out. I'm also 100% certain that no EFNet IRC Op would help you with a trivial channel matter. Neither Khaled nor anybody on this forum can help you because as far as I can tell they really don't have anything to do with that channel. So accept your situation and stop bitching on a forum that has nothing to do with your problem and whose users (or at least me and everyone else who has responded to this thread so far) don't care one iota about it.


Is the topic of this thread a "My request to get unbanned from Efnet #mIRC?" Or is it "My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC."

Quote:
There have been 70 posts now going round in circles of people trying to explain that nobody here can or will do anything to help you and that by the sounds of it the ops of the channel were entirely justified in their actions. Not that it would matter if they weren't - your problem would still be irrelevant to this forum and would still be just the nature of IRC in action.


Call this the straw man? I sure don't deny the posts and advice/opinions going around.

-Neal.

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#192140 - 22/12/07 10:46 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
starbucks_mafia Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2962
Loc: Norwich, UK
Quote:
Is the topic of this thread a "My request to get unbanned from Efnet #mIRC?" Or is it "My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC."

Your assumption is that anyone cares. They don't. How many thousands of people get banned from channels on IRC each day? Why is this any more important?
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Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.

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#192141 - 22/12/07 10:50 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: starbucks_mafia]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: starbucks_mafia
Your assumption is that anyone cares. They don't. How many thousands of people get banned from channels on IRC each day? Why is this any more important?


I don't see how my ban is any significant.

Suppose there was a topic that no one cares about. It was meaningless. Therefore, the only posts that someone would post was to point out that the topic was meaningless. This could very well be the case for the "typical message board."

And then I don't think the regulars at mirc.com forums have idiots. Meaning, no one there would care to "feed the trolls."

So suppose I posted a meaningless topic that no 1 cared about in mirc.com forums. I would expect to get "0" replies.

-Neal.

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#192143 - 22/12/07 10:56 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
starbucks_mafia Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2962
Loc: Norwich, UK
Meaningless or not, you also flamed a specific channel which clearly a number of forums users go to. You knew exactly what you were doing trying to get people to respond. The art of trolling lives on.

Besides, whether people respond or not is irrelevant to whether you should have posted it here.
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Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.

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#192144 - 22/12/07 10:57 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: starbucks_mafia]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Quote:
Meaningless or not, you also flamed a specific channel which clearly a number of forums users go to. You knew exactly what you were doing trying to get people to respond. The art of trolling lives on.


No I don't believe or want to give the ad hominem (to person and channel). Which channel was it and what did I say that was a flame?

-Neal.

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#192145 - 22/12/07 10:59 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
starbucks_mafia Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2962
Loc: Norwich, UK
See post 1.

Wow, the thread has gone full circle. Now we can all move on with our lives.

Cheque please!
_________________________
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.

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#192146 - 22/12/07 11:01 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: starbucks_mafia]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Criticism/complaint != flame in my opinion.

And when I criticize, I use examples. Matter fact, I listed about 7 scenarios providing the veracity of my complaint.

Anyways, suppose I did flame a channel. My conclusion would still be irrelevant if I didn't provide my premise.

-Neal.

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#192148 - 22/12/07 11:07 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
To make it clear for future posts:

If I someone said "this channel sucks!" and did not provide a reasoning behind it, then indeed, it was a troll topic, and no one has to bother responding to it.

And then of course, saying "this channel sucks" is also not specific.

But if someone said "this channel sucks because of these 7 reasons," and he listed the 7 reasons, providing examples, and scenarios of how it happened in real life, then that would be something else.

No where in my topic have I said I was requesting to be unbanned. No where in my topic did I say I was upset of not being unbanned.

Which is why I don't want any straw mans/red herrings/ad hominems/slipper slope, etc.

I came here to discuss the logic (or possibly illogic) of the provided scenarios and situations in post 1. These are specific situations of a specific channel, which I find somewhat linked to the forums. That's all a complaint is - merely a complaint.

-Neal.

Edit: And I did get some relevant answers, such as "you must build reputation," "you must build trust." Etc.

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#192149 - 22/12/07 11:12 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
starbucks_mafia Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2962
Loc: Norwich, UK
Your findings are wrong: As everyone else has pointed out repeatedly, that channel has nothing to do with this forum other than some people happen to use both. As such, there is absolutely no reason why you should be complaining here. It doesn't matter if you have reasons, premises, or conclusions, this is the wrong place.
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Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.

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#192150 - 22/12/07 11:16 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: starbucks_mafia]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
What do you do if you wanted to announce to a channel about the criticism and complaints without flooding/loading the 4 pages into the channel itself or the p.m. windows of every op?

Why.. find the message board that has the largest percent of the channel op staff. Logically, that beats posting in the message board with the least amount of op staff.

And then I of course, understand if you don't appreciate my reasoning. Sorry for whatever minimal damage or not I caused to the people not involved in this. Maybe I'm a negative externality.

-Neal.

Edit: Now of course, there will be consequences for posting in such a message board. Particularly the fact that you may get additional criticism from people who do not regular the channel, therefore, find the topic irrelevant in the message board. But those consequences will not weigh in with what I came here to get - feedback from channel staff.

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#192152 - 22/12/07 11:21 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
argv0 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/03
Posts: 3918
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
Your criticism hasn't been 4 pages long... you've made about one original point worth about one line of IRC buffer space.

"YOURE BEING UNFAIR AND MAKING UP RULES ON THE SPOT"

We know. Live with it.
_________________________
- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
- "Life is a pointer to an integer without a cast"

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#192153 - 22/12/07 11:22 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: argv0]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Which is why this is a gamble - I never know if someone out there cares.

-Neal.

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#192155 - 22/12/07 11:29 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
tomalak16 Offline
Vogon poet

Registered: 24/12/02
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
Oh for crying out loud, just shut up and quit wasting time, bandwidth and storage space on your Internet sob story. Were you referring to real life then you may have some issues that ought to be resolved. But you're not. And you don't. So let's just end this right here. Thankyou.
_________________________
<Ingo> I can't uninstall it, there seems to be some kind of "Uninstall Shield"

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#192156 - 22/12/07 11:29 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
argv0 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/03
Posts: 3918
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
Well, no one cares.

Please.

Stop.
_________________________
- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
- "Life is a pointer to an integer without a cast"

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#192157 - 22/12/07 11:31 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: argv0]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: argv0
Well, no one cares.


In that case, no one is my best friend. I like no one!

-Neal.

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#192158 - 22/12/07 11:35 PM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Now here's a 3rd situation I'm against.

Suppose there were 2 brothers, brother A, and brother B. Both brother A and brother B hate each other. Both of them hang in #channel. Both of them want to be op in that channel. Both of them do not want to be banned from #channel.

Suppose brother A becomes op. He will ban brother B.

Suppose brother B becomes op. He will ban brother A.

I'm completely against this situation - because it violates the Golden Rule (the do unto others thing). Now whether or not the Golden Rule is illogical or not, I haven't spent the time to think about it.

-Neal.

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#192162 - 23/12/07 12:10 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Mentality Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 5024
Loc: London, England
I'll do the honours.
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Mentality/Chris

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