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#192088 - 22/12/07 03:39 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Riamus2]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Riamus2
As I stated, enforcing rules is completely up to the ops in any channel and they can do so in whatever way they like because it is THEIR channel.


Point number 1.

Originally Posted By: Riamus2
Other ops/admins/etc can choose to discipline other ops if things get out of hand, but other than that, they can do whatever they choose to. Because it is their channel and their right.


Point number 2.

You 1st talk about enforcing rules is completely up to the ops, and 2., they can do whatever they choose.

Now of course, that doesn't differentiate between doing whatever you want, and doing whatever you want in spirit of the channel rules. Because in 1 example, enforcing channel rules is irrelevant.

Originally Posted By: Riamus2
If it's all about popularity, so what? That's their choice. That doesn't give you the right to abuse the rules.


There are no rights to abuse rules.

We acknowledged that I didn't break the "no scripts rule" either because it does not exist, hence why certain people can run a country locator script, or, that it does exist, but there are exceptions to individuals, and I am not 1 of them, as a result of earning respect, which is why other people can run other scripts.

And as far as I think about building a reputation, the thing is, you will have to build it to all the active ops. Just because I could be personal friends with 1 op such that he wouldn't ban me for running a country locator script doesn't mean another op who does not know me won't.

-Neal.

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#192089 - 22/12/07 03:44 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Bekar]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Bekar
I don't think it's really about popularity. It's more about trust.


Like reputation - that might be a better wording

Originally Posted By: Bekar
On EFNet's #mIRC there are many regulars who help out, who are happy to abide by the rules. Sure, some push those rules, and are pushed back if they overstep their boundaries. They've been around long enough to show that they are responsible and responsive to comment.

Trust is gained in this manner.

You on the other hand stepped in, pushed the rules, ignored comments, and thus any possible credibility or trust was destroyed. When asked to stop this behaviour, you ignored the requestor and continued. You didn't try to get along with the community; you only tried to push your own agenda.

So in order to limit the interruption you were causing, you were kicked and banned. When these bans were removed, you came back in and continued your previous behaviour unchanged. Thus you were put onto a permanent ban list.


(Response to the underlined bold): Nope, my permanent bans were not removed. I flew in an airplane from Chicago to San Diego. I recall looking at the ban list to see my previous host still in existence.

All this talk about how 1 must achieve "trust" to get additional priviledges is what I am somewhat against - as I believe in giving everyone equal opportunity regardless of how well I know them.

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#192090 - 22/12/07 03:52 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: genius_at_work]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: genius_at_work

@OP:
IRC channel operators are not required to be fair in ANY way. There are no laws in IRC channels. Any moral or ethical decisions are by choice only. The 'higher' level ops (channel founders, etc) may choose to enforce their own consequences for ops who disobey the channel's guidelines, but that is not a requirement either. You are in their channel, and thus are required to either do as they say (follow the rules) or leave (whether by choice or otherwise).


Which I agree to every extent about IRC channels. Except I wasn't criticizing IRC channels in general. That would be something else.

Quote:
The rules laid out in a channel are 'general guidelines' that were created by the channel's ops. As a result, those rules can be created, modified, or removed without any notice to you or anyone else. The rules do not have to be fair, or at all logical. For example, if I (or any other op) chose, I could ban you simply because I dislike nicknames that contain an 'h'. I'd not be required to provide any explanation of any type to you, nor would I have to ever unban you if I so chose.


And now while we're on the subject about IRC channels that do have rules, then we can discuss a particular channel and a particular rule.

Quote:
In most cases, channel rules are quite fair and logical. As several ops of the channel in question have stated, you were specifically and repeatedly told of a rule (whether it previously existed or was created on the spot for you) and you refused to abide by that rule. As a result of your refusal to follow that rule, you were banned. It is as simple as that. There is no point in complaining about it, and evading will just cause the ops to change a potential temp-ban into a permanent ban instantly.


Oh yes, I love rules that are made on the spot! This is an example where, if I want you gone, I can make a new rule for your situation and say you broke it. Hence the reasoning.

A lot of your reasons seems to be as strong as the other way around.

I.e.

"Any op can ban you for any reason."
Same as "any regular user can evade any ban for any reason."

"I don't need a reason to ban you."
"I don't need a reason to evade your ban."

Etc.

-Neal.

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#192093 - 22/12/07 04:36 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: LostShadow]
argv0 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/03
Posts: 3918
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
Originally Posted By: LostShadow
"Any op can ban you for any reason."
Same as "any regular user can evade any ban for any reason."


This is the logic that justified your original ban. I suggest you stop digging your grave, it's deep enough.
_________________________
- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
- "Life is a pointer to an integer without a cast"

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#192096 - 22/12/07 07:16 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC. [Re: argv0]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: argv0
This is the logic that justified your original ban. I suggest you stop digging your grave, it's deep enough.


"Any op can ban you for any reason."

This goes back to 1 of my original points.

This means anyone can be permanently banned for anything at any time. Meaning, there are no rational standards to justify whether a ban is set or not. Therefore, there is no action that an op can argue is justified because he or she believes that it is right. If the ops believe that what they do is an acceptable means to decide what to do, they will ultimately have no choice but to accept that whatever they do can be whatever they want, as all they need is to say that they think it is the right thing to do.

Sounds a lot like faith?

That is certainly something that I would be against when justifying such decisions. And since this is serendipity logic we're talking about - there are no rational replies.

2 particular rules I dislike. I've collected them from real experiences. The "any op can ban you for any reason" falls under 1 of them.

They are:

1.Do not argue with the ops.
2.Do not piss the ops off.

My whole philosophy on rules includes rules that can be verified to be broken.

Idea: when enforcing a rule, there has to be evidence (proof) that a rule is broken.

An example of this is a caps rule. Suppose a random arbitrary number like 80% is the limit.

Then, a script can be written to calculate the percentage of caps.

But a rule that fails the accuracy of this, is the do not piss the ops off.

"Oh, he said 83.33% caps." "Clearly he broke a rule."

The above proof can be shown, calculated, etc.

"Oh? He pissed an op off?"
"Hey, I'm an op, I'm pissed off."

A rule such as the above would need rational standards. And quite contrarily, how do you prove that you were pissed off? Why, relying on others that have faith that you are right when you say you are pissed off (as you can easily lie about it). This goes back to my horrible 'f' word: faith.

This is why the "do not piss ops off" rule fails my book - it needs to be specific. We like specific examples and specific situations.

Now for the previous: no arguing with the ops.

The problem with this rule is that it fails under some non-ending loop.

*Ban*
*Kick*
(Later)
*Join*
"Hey, why did you ban kick me? What did I do?"
"No reason."
"But I didn't break any rules!"
"I'm going to ban you now though."
"Why?"
"Arguing with ops."

If you think I'm making this up, the 2nd channel I've been to on IRC has that rule in 2001, and still does today. The "no arguing with ops" rule means you can argue about an unfair channel ban, but make it eligible for a channel ban by thus breaking that rule. Clearly I find that example rule also a bad 1.

And I think it is a good thing that police officers do not go around arresting people just because they feel like it, or have faith that you committed a crime without proof or evidence. Just as much as I think it's a good thing judges don't go around approving you're guilty of a crime just because they feel like it. Which is why I like to live in a world with rational standards, regardless of how all the sexual and economic favors you can do to gain up.

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#192097 - 22/12/07 07:32 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Rand Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 28/02/05
Posts: 342
"Cry more noob." seems quite fitting here.

Just because you can do something, does not mean that you should.


There's absolutely no reason for you to notify other people that they're unbanned. That does nothing more than invite trouble. Your reasoning behind doing it is quite pointless too. People don't need to know if they're unbanned or not, if the ops wanted them to know, the ops would message them and tell them.

I'd probably ban you too if I had to ask you more than once to disable a script like that.

PS: Life isn't fair, nor is IRC. Get used to it.

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#192098 - 22/12/07 07:36 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Rand]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Nothing wrong with crying.

The "life isn't fair" reason is pretty redundant, from a subjective point of view.

Because it doesn't distinguish between purposely leaving life unfair, and trying to improve. I could do considerable damage to someone, and use the "life is not fair" excuse, but that doesn't justify my doing.

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#192099 - 22/12/07 07:38 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
zack Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 266
Loc: Australia
07:16.57/p <@zack^> FireHose go away
07:16.57/p <jarryd> FireHose go away
07:16.58/p <Neal`> FireHose go away

Your scripts suck, Neal.
_________________________
You won't like it when I get angry.

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#192100 - 22/12/07 07:54 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Rand Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 28/02/05
Posts: 342
There's a difference between crying, and going on a forum shouting about the injustices that have been dealt to you. After reading your posts, I've concluded that your logic is flawed, your comparisons aren't very good. As you've been told, if you don't like it, leave.

Also, as zack mentioned, you never seem to get rid of your terrible scripts.

Quote:

[09/12/07 | 09:53.17] * Rand slaps Neal` around a bit with a large myndzi- and wonders idly if Neal` disabled his script for this channel yet.
[09/12/07 | 09:53.19] * myndzi- slaps Neal` around a bit with a large myndzi- and wonders idly if Neal` disabled his script for this channel yet.
[09/12/07 | 09:53.19] * Neal` slaps Neal` around a bit with a large myndzi- and wonders idly if Neal` disabled his script for this channel yet.
[09/12/07 | 09:53.19] * Unimatrix0 sets mode: +b *!*Laptop@*.hsd1.il.comcast.net
[09/12/07 | 09:53.19] *** Nicks affected from bans: Neal`
[09/12/07 | 09:53.19] *** Neal` was kicked by Unimatrix0 ([exp\yet.] This yet. abuse incident will be reported.)

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#192101 - 22/12/07 08:02 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Rand]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Rand
There's a difference between crying, and going on a forum shouting about the injustices that have been dealt to you.


What are the differences?

Regarding your "life isn't fair," what is that supposed to mean? Life in the individual level? Or for the universe?

How do you know life isn't fair? I think people who say "life isn't fair" apparently don't view both sides of the story.

-Neal.

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#192102 - 22/12/07 08:45 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Rand Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 28/02/05
Posts: 342
This is another reason you probably have issues. You make too much out of some things, and too little out of others. You really are hopeless.

Born blind, death, mute, deformities, STDs.
Living with cancer, diseases, lost limbs, scars, poverty.
Losing a parent, a sibling, a child, a friend.

Not being able to go to a concert, because you were mugged on the way there. Recieving dirty looks, because of the way you dress at church. Being scolded for things you did not do. Paying for a crime you never committed. Dying for a cause you did not believe in. Being left out, because you simply did not fit in.

Did I list enough?

Crying is one thing, you can mope all you want in your own privacy. But going onto a forum and posting things just to gain recognition for your beliefs, when you should be confronting the ops, isn't going to sit well with people.

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#192103 - 22/12/07 08:46 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
TropNul Offline
Babel fish

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 89
You continuously talk avout being rational and objective while you're not even rational nor objective yourself throughout all this thread. You think you'll change IRC (or even the world) by thinking only about your oneself ?

As from here, the thread is in a whole, Caduque !

Next time, please think twice or even thrice before even thinking you shall think. Because as it is here, your opinions are completely subjective and irrationnal.

As I know you'll refute my post irrationnally and subjectively, this will please me to see this reply. lol. There's atleast something entertaining to laugh at on this board. Your thread!.

Cordialement smile
_________________________
tropnul

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#192104 - 22/12/07 08:53 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Rand]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Rand
Born blind, death, mute, deformities, STDs.
Living with cancer, diseases, lost limbs, scars,


Those are all biological disadvantages of life. Such as the role of genes. While you are right on those extent, my reference was how society plays a role in the fairness of.. life. This means interactions between humans.

Originally Posted By: Rand
poverty.
Losing a parent, a sibling, a child, a friend.


And then these are all coincidences that can happen in life. Take a look at chance.

Originally Posted By: Rand
Not being able to go to a concert, because you were mugged on the way there. Recieving dirty looks, because of the way you dress at church. Being scolded for things you did not do. Paying for a crime you never committed. Dying for a cause you did not believe in. Being left out, because you simply did not fit in.


Take a look at cause and effect.

Originally Posted By: Rand
Did I list enough?

Crying is one thing, you can mope all you want in your own privacy. But going onto a forum and posting things just to gain recognition for your beliefs, when you should be confronting the ops, isn't going to sit well with people.


My whole point was on the fairness between people.

Examples.

-A CEO pays a white employer more money than a black employer of the same intelligence, education, etc.
-Black person got charged with a felony while a white person got charged with a misdemeanor even though they committed the same crime and in same jurisdictions.
-Females on IRC get harassed for pics while males on IRC do not.
-A personal favorite of mine. Where it's a crime (felony in some jurisdictions) to wear a bullet-vest for protection during a crime scene. Whereas police officers can wear 1 anytime. And then, if you're not a police officer, being charged with that crime could mean not becoming a police officer, where as a police officer you have the right to wear a bullet vest anyways.

All your talk about how some species fluorish while others go extinct - that's life, no? But I'm not so much interested in dealing with biological fairness. Or that people born in a powerful country do better than people born in Africa. I'm also less complaining about historical fairness.

-Neal.

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#192105 - 22/12/07 08:58 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: TropNul]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: TropNul
You continuously talk avout being rational and objective while you're not even rational nor objective yourself throughout all this thread.


Why.. lecture on!

Quote:
You think you'll change IRC (or even the world) by thinking only about your oneself ?


No - this is a matter regarding a public channel. I don't see how it should involve the world or all of IRC. Perhaps if all the world or IRC have been to that channel..

Quote:
As from here, the thread is in a whole, Caduque !

Next time, please think twice or even thrice before even thinking you shall think. Because as it is here, your opinions are completely subjective and irrationnal.

As I know you'll refute my post irrationnally and subjectively, this will please me to see this reply. lol. There's atleast something entertaining to laugh at on this board. Your thread!.

Cordialement smile


But we also like premises that lead to the conclusion.

I don't mind having a sense of humor interpreted by others.

-Neal.

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#192106 - 22/12/07 09:03 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
Rand Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 28/02/05
Posts: 342
Cancer and diseases can be linked to food, medication, stress levels, and many other things.

Life will never be fair. People can and do get treated fairly between people at times, but this is simply impossible on an every case basis. Until individuality is completely erased, life will never be fair.

Last post in this thread, for me.

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#192107 - 22/12/07 09:04 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
I must ask, if someone say to you "I don't like you, and i don't want you in my home", do you still go to visit there? and if they don't open the door for you, then you going in true the window? the same goes for the channels, if they don't want you there, then you should not go there. by change host and enter there anyway will only get your "new" host banned as well. And sit here and argue about it i don't think will help you get back in, only the way you act to others and how you behave will help you.
_________________________
if ($me != tired) { return } | else { echo -a Get a pot of coffee now $+($me,.) }

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#192108 - 22/12/07 09:09 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: Rand]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
But to say life isn't fair implies life has problems, or can be improved. And that (in my opinion at least) says life is significant.

And who is to say anything in life matters. Or in other words - the fact that living organisms find themselves significant doesn't mean they are. It doesn't matter whether you existed or not, just as much as stuff goes around in the universe or not.

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#192109 - 22/12/07 09:11 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: sparta
I must ask, if someone say to you "I don't like you, and i don't want you in my home", do you still go to visit there?


And if you do, consequences can be held. Such as violating a no trespassing law.

Originally Posted By: sparta
and if they don't open the door for you, then you going in true the window? the same goes for the channels, if they don't want you there, then you should not go there. by change host and enter there anyway will only get your "new" host banned as well. And sit here and argue about it i don't think will help you get back in, only the way you act to others and how you behave will help you.


You're comparing private homes to public channels.

The equivalent would be a public building run by a staff. And 1 staff member could tell 1 individual he does not want him there.

-Neal.

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#192111 - 22/12/07 09:27 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: LostShadow]
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
Quote:
You're comparing private homes to public channels.


The channel belong to the users on it. without the users the channels aren't anything. and if some users can't follow the rules, then they get forced out from the channel.
_________________________
if ($me != tired) { return } | else { echo -a Get a pot of coffee now $+($me,.) }

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#192112 - 22/12/07 09:30 AM Re: My complaint and criticism against Efnet #mIRC [Re: sparta]
LostShadow Offline
Fjord artisan

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 509
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: sparta
The channel belong to the users on it. without the users the channels aren't anything. and if some users can't follow the rules, then they get forced out from the channel.


And on the contrary, the channel belongs to the ops. The amount of regular user population isn't significant. If all the regular users left and all was left were the ops - well, that wouldn't mean anything different.

-Neal.

The following below is useless text.

And the phrase goes on, the channel belongs to the IRC ops/admins of Efnet. They can come in and do whatever they want. The channel belongs to Hardy - the CEO of Efnet.

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