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#187911 15/10/07 12:39 AM
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m0thman Offline OP
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Ok.. I had loads of thoughts.

I found this message board so tedious I can barely be bothered to post them any more. First off, mIRC's been around for ages.. I used it in the mid to late nighties and it still doesn't do much more as far as I'm aware. Why ask people to pay for this? Most Joe and Josephine public's are out there doing their thing and are completely unaware that IRC exists. They're wrapped up in their Facebook, hooked up with their MSN IM, Google talk and plucking their pidgin. So whats the big deal I hear you say?

Well that's it. There isn't one as far as I can see. After a brief sortie on IRC after MANY many years absence.. It's dying. Almost dead in fact. How can you sell this crap as a modern application?

Just my thoughts. Don't bother to flame, I wont be back to read!

m0thman #187912 15/10/07 12:49 AM
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Hoopy frood
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IRC isn't dead by any means. At the time of this post "There are 870,271 people in 531,400 chatrooms right now!" according to www.searchirc.com (although I'm probably counted thrice). The channels and networks you used to frequent may have emptied, but IRC as a whole has not.

MSN, Google Talk, etc. may be more popular, but have a very different emphasis (1-to-1 conversation primarily with people you already know, as opposed to channels full of people you probably don't).

Finally, just in case you didn't realise, mIRC has been shareware for over a decade.

I'm willing to bet you'll be back smile

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Vogon poet
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but he is right
mirc isnt modern app

it has bad design for casual user
it has bad gui approach for casual user
and not realy much features for casual user

scripters can make their own version of mirc
but default one is baaad


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Hoopy frood
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he is not "right", he merely made an irrelevant point.

mIRC's "design" and "gui" is based on the inevitable fact that the program is an IRC client. _IRC_ is not meant for the "casual user" (the one you're probably referring to, anyway), therefore mIRC can't do much better. That's like saying "Damn Microsoft Visual Studio, they make it so hard for the casual computer user to write C++!"

Both your and his point share a logical fallacy in that you start with the false assumption that "modern" is equivalent to being "easy to use for a casual user". That is a false assumption, and therefore your entire argument *cannot* be "right".

As far as the "default" version of mIRC being "baaad", you should probably be aware that while mIRC scripts may slightly alter the UI of the program, they rarely change the real interaction or workflow of the user in that of typing to people and reading text.. you know, normal IRC stuff. Scripts are generally just UI fluff, ie. changing the colour of text or adding more information to your whois replies or giving you quicker access to certain commands. That still changes very little about how mIRC really works. I'd love to know of a script that alters mIRC so drastically as to make it "modern".

I should add that I think mIRC does a great job of making basic IRC functionality available to the user by "default". I don't really know what mIRC is missing to get someone on IRC and chatting, or even doing simple channel administration. If you know of anything, we have a Feature Suggestions board for that very purpose.


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argv0 #187917 15/10/07 02:35 AM
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sorry but many scripts (not full) make mirc more complete
as an functional app than bare naked mirc that you get.

examples:

mp3 players
log viewers
auth scripts
XDCC scripts
protection scripts (channel and personal)

etc etc...

and you cant compare visual studio to mirc

beacuse VS is only made for programing and nothing more
mirc is CLIENT that fotunately can be altered with scripting
and if user is using a client, no matter which one (ftp, irc, IM, p2p) the important thing for CASUAL users (and yes not only geeks and so called pros go on IRC) is to have simplified
and nice GUI in which user can find its ways.

now comming back to useful scripts that DONT change GUI and ur precious fonts:

many many scripts make mirc complete features to stand out
that mirc doesnt have by default.

people who dont intend to browse thru folders searching
for something that was written yesterday or 3 days ago
can easily navigate thru well made logviewer script

people who find it annoying to write again and again always
command line to "identify" to services or bots can easily
just put info into dialog (auth script) and never worry about it anymore...

those who come for filesharing also want/need simple GUI made
script that show everything that is needed and everything to
have it THERE, the normal /dcc <command> with flags are not
handy to type everytime...

those who come on irc to meet peoples or to JUST chat
join in many channels or in less channels with many users.
what do you get there ? -> spam
what is cure ?
a user protection, yet another good NON GUI modification but
an feature for user to configure things with few clicks


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Hoopy frood
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Originally Posted By: WideOpenSpace

beacuse VS is only made for programing and nothing more
mirc is CLIENT that fotunately can be altered with scripting


mIRC is an IRC client, it's funny how you missed the most important word. It is *made* for IRC and nothing more. The fact that people use mIRC as mp3 players is not the main intention of the author- mIRC is still an IRC client; that's why IRC is prominently displayed in the name.

By the way, Visual Studio can also be extended by plugins just like mIRC can.

So by the same token, people could extend Visual Studio to be an mp3 player just like mIRC. But as you said, such an extension would NOT make Visual Studio an mp3 player, because it is and has always been a programming tool and nothing more. Your problem is that you fail to make this same exact logical connection with mIRC.

To be more a little explicit about my point, mIRC can *also* be extended into an mp3 player, but to quote myself: "such an extension would NOT make Visual Studio mIRC an mp3 player, because it is and has always been a programming tool an IRC client and nothing more."

And I think the root of this oversight has to do with that little intentional mistake you made at the top of your post by leaving out the word "IRC" when describing mIRC. If you refuse to acknowledge that mIRC is an IRC client and claim that it is just "a client" (a client of what, by the way?) then you will fail to see the obvious truth lying behind this program: Khaled isn't creating mIRC to be your programming environment, he is creating it to be an IRC client. Instead, you're using mIRC as a programming environment.. clearly this is true, because an mp3 player has nothing to do with IRC.

Now, it's probably easy for you to misinterpret what I just said and conclude that I think all extension of mIRC beyond the scope of IRC is bad... I don't. However, you must understand that you're running mIRC in an edge case scenario here-- in a situation it was never intended to be used as.. kind of like writing PacMan in Excel. It may be cool, fun, and useful to many, but it's not the purpose of this program.

All that said-- no one stops you from writing scripts, and Khaled put plenty of time into the scripting engine to give you all of this power. And he did this specifically so that you could use it-- use it to extend mIRC how you see fit. So when you're complaining how mIRC doesn't have your favourite mp3 player script built in, or even flood/clone/massdeop/spam/etc. protection.. well, you just answered your own question. It's not builtin because it's available as a script. This is how mIRC works. It's how mIRC is functional. The functionality lies in the ability to script it. How you missed that simple fact is beyond me, but anyhow.. listing a bunch of scripts actually helps to prove how functional and complete mIRC *is*, rather than not.

So you may say that mIRC is not intuitive because it requires you to script your functionality...

That is a fair argument.

To that I say:

If you don't like mIRC's design choices, feel free to use another program. No one forced you to use mIRC. There are IRC clients that give you a baby UI with some (not all) of the features you described. Go use that. mIRC will still remain highly useful to a ton of people, and pleasing every single computer user was never the intention of this program, AFAIK.

What I'm trying to say is: It's really pointless to say that a well established program with a huge community should all of a sudden start catering to a group of individuals it never intended to cater to-- because that is not the purpose of the program. The users that this program does not cater to probably have an array of program choices that *do* cater to their needs. A good author focuses his efforts on his community first, and new users second- not the other way around. I think almost every registered user on this forum is happy with the way things are now, and wouldn't want mIRC to change for someone else.



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argv0 #187931 15/10/07 10:19 AM
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Hoopy frood
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argv0's completely right. And I know a lot of "newbie" users of mIRC who had very little trouble picking up mIRC and using it. Usually the trouble they have is related to figuring out IRC commands, not in how to use mIRC itself.

I think the idea of "modern" may be more related to how it looks from a GUI perspective. Sure, it looks a bit dated right now if you don't add themes or other scripting changes that affect the GUI. That doesn't make it less modern. People are so hung up on making things "cute" rather than functional. Functional is much more important than making something look fancy. Just because Microsoft decided that looking fancy was so important that they changed many of there programs along with the OS so that it looked fancier doesn't mean that all programs need to do so. That isn't what makes something modern.

Besides, IRC itself isn't exactly modern. IRC is a text based chatting platform that has changed very little since it first came out. It will probably never become more than a text based chatting platform. mIRC can't make IRC what it is not. Sure, you can add fancy stuff to it such as emoticons and mp3 players and whatever else, but that doesn't affect IRC itself... no one else sees that stuff unless they also want to use such scripts. IRC is and probably will always be just a text based chatting platform and you aren't going to be able to "modernize" mIRC and change what IRC is.


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m0thman #187953 15/10/07 05:55 PM
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mIRC should definitly remain an IRC client, and nothing more.
On the other hand, I can understand that a lot of people would like to improve/modify certain behaviour, or add certain features. Instead of demanding these countless variations and wishes of mIRC itself, perhaps it would be more useful to discus extensions to the already present script engine, or perhaps a secondary plugin API to tie in more powerful features for those that need/want it. For example, while we can adjust fonts and colours of most text, and more with fancier theme engines, we're pretty much 'stuck' with the default treebar/toolbar/switchbar icons and styling, so some more customisability could be useful here.
In essence, mIRC should remain an IRC client, but sufficient methods to personalise and augment one's install are always loved.

argv0 #187957 15/10/07 06:54 PM
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lol lol

you ask me to point out scripts that are non mirc GUI or font
decorating related and you give me this BS:

Originally Posted By: argv0

If you don't like mIRC's design choices, feel free to use another program. No one forced you to use mIRC. There are IRC clients that give you a baby UI with some (not all) of the features you described. Go use that.


do you even realise what i was talking about ?

Originally Posted By: argv0

mIRC will still remain highly useful to a ton of people, and pleasing every single computer user was never the intention of this program, AFAIK.


who is saying to please EVERY SINGLE COMPUTER ? (your words)
i talk about more modern design with more default features
that are IRC related.

Originally Posted By: argv0

I think almost every registered user on this forum is happy with the way things are now, and wouldn't want mIRC to change for someone else.


did you asked those "most every single users" ?
did you made a voting poll ?
did you made some statistics in last 7 years with "most every user" on this forum based on what do they think ?


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Originally Posted By: argv0

I think almost every registered user on this forum is happy with the way things are now,
and wouldn't want mIRC to change for someone else.




That has my vote.

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Hoopy frood
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Quote:
did you asked those "most every single users" ?
did you made a voting poll ?
did you made some statistics in last 7 years with "most every user" on this forum based on what do they think ?

Did you do any of those things before you made your "mIRC isn't good for casual users" assertion? I'm thinking not.

Really this entire thread needs to die. The initial post was a blatant troll based on ridiculous assumptions:
  • IRC is dead.
    - There are still tens of thousands of users on dozens of networks. Obviously it isn't dead.

  • Khaled shouldn't charge for mIRC.
    - Welcome to the free market. People are free to charge whatever they want for whatever products and services they provide. If the charge isn't fair then people won't use the product/service. The fact that mIRC has been shareware for over a decade and continues to be developed and sold shows that many many people think that it is worth the money.


There, initial post answered. We can all move on with our lives.


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Hoopy frood
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Personally I'm a bit surprised that there have been as many posts to this topic as there have, especially considering the OP stated
Quote:
Just my thoughts. Don't bother to flame, I wont be back to read!

RusselB #187969 15/10/07 09:37 PM
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Hoopy frood
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They also stated "I can barely be bothered to post them any more." and it was their first post. They're reading it.

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Vogon poet
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sorry mafia
but i never stated mirc isnt good for casual users.


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Originally Posted By: WideOpenSpace

it has bad design for casual user
it has bad gui approach for casual user
and not realy much features for casual user

sorry mafia
but i never stated mirc isnt good for casual users.



Yeah I can't see where he got that from either. confused


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