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Uninstall is not CLEAN! #185356 08/09/07 10:29 PM
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Mrafrohead Offline OP
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While I know most Windoze programmers tend to think that when you uninstall a program you don't need to clean it off completely. I personally consider this a bug.

Why is it that when I went to uninstall my version of mIRC - that I freaking paid for and that will not take my damn registration info - it did NOT remove all entries?

The _entire_ Application Data\mIRC directory is left behind. And that is just a start. I haven't even gone through the rest of my computer yet.

I am so unimpressed with this release, it isn't even funny.

Boo on you Khaled. Boo!

The registration problem - needs to be fixed!

I was going to go and download a crack to make it work, but I paid for this damn application. I have sent e-mails yesterday and have heard nothing yet. I don't want this damn nag screen there. I try to uninstall as I figure it's easier for me to change to a different vendor that is FREE (Chatzilla) and I go to check to make sure the uninstall is clean and the FIRST place I look there is all of the install files left?

Not impressed... What did you guys bring on some ex-Micro$oft employees for coding?

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: Mrafrohead] #185357 08/09/07 10:35 PM
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Waaaaa!

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: Mrafrohead] #185368 08/09/07 10:59 PM
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Do you need your bottle refilled? Your diaper changed?

I hope you enjoy Chatzilla. Why not write messages on paper and have carrier pigeons deliver them for you.

And just for your information the _entire_ Application Data\mIRC directory contains your settings and scripts, therefore it is generally undesirable for those things to automatically be removed when uninstalling. If you were to quit whining and email Khaled to get your registration solved, you could then reinstall mIRC and all of your settings and scripts would still be as they were before.

-genius_at_work

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: genius_at_work] #185378 08/09/07 11:29 PM
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This would be a good feature suggestion. The uninstaller should ask if these files and folders should be removed.

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: RoCk] #185381 08/09/07 11:41 PM
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Agreed. Uninstalling the app should NEVER remove custom settings (and scripts) without conformation. A popup "Do you want to remove ... as well?" is a nice idea, and I suppose the OP would be satisfied, too.

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: Mrafrohead] #185383 09/09/07 12:01 AM
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Quote:
The _entire_ Application Data\mIRC directory is left behind. And that is just a start. I haven't even gone through the rest of my computer yet.

- That's because it's the recommended practice to leave the user's settings on Windows. In fact that's true for any multi-user system. Why? Because it's a multi-user system. Removing settings from AppData would mean having to remove those settings from all users on the machine which would be stepping a long way out of bounds. How would you feel as a user if the admin on the machine uninstalled mIRC and the next time you logged on you found all of your settings, logs, downloaded files, scripts, sounds, and anything else you had stored in that folder were gone? Not good I'm guessing. In fact I bet you'd just be on here whining like a baby about that instead.

So I'm wondering, of the thousands of programs that follow this recommended practice, how many others have you written to whining about this? How many others have you complained about because they haven't responded to an email within 24 hours? Have you written to Microsoft to demand that they change their recommended practice? I'm guessing no.

It's one thing not to know or understand this stuff, but it's quite another to showcase your ignorance with this incredible bout of childish behaviour. I hope when you re-read this thread you're suitably ashamed of yourself.


Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: starbucks_mafia] #185385 09/09/07 12:06 AM
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Removing settings from AppData would mean having to remove those settings from all users on the machine

no because the dir "app data" is on a different folder for each user

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: Attila] #185386 09/09/07 12:10 AM
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Quote:
no because the dir "app data" is on a different folder for each user

Yes, I'm aware. Which is exactly why it would be completely out of bounds for the uninstaller to remove those settings from every user's folder. Unless you think it should only remove AppData for the user who's uninstalling. But then that would be completely bizarre behaviour seeing as the program would still uninstall for all users, and it still wouldn't be a "clean" uninstall as the OP wants.


Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: genius_at_work] #185392 09/09/07 02:59 AM
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Mrafrohead Offline OP
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@genius_at_work:

"If you were to quit whining and email Khaled to get your registration solved, you could then reinstall mIRC and all of your settings and scripts would still be as they were before."

If you were to actually read the post before attempting to flame, you would have noticed that I included the fact that I had already sent an e-mail.

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: starbucks_mafia] #185394 09/09/07 03:09 AM
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@starbucks_mafia:

"How would you feel as a user if the admin on the machine uninstalled mIRC and the next time you logged on you found all of your settings, logs, downloaded files, scripts, sounds, and anything else you had stored in that folder were gone?"

You are obviously not a system administrator...

While I do not code and do not know the "recommended practices"...I do know poor etiquette.

When you are the ADMINISTRATOR of a machine, you control the applications a user can and can not use. Their data is YOUR data and that is that. If I decide that it is time to remove an application off of my network, then you had better hope that you are using the "recommended practice" of backing up your information. As when it is time to make a system change, you may be left screwed.

On a side note: In the past when mIRC used to uninstall, it did at one time remove everything from the \Program Files\mIRC directory that IT installed in there and not any extra scripts that you had put in there.

If the mIRC directory had been left in Application Data and ONLY had the scripts that I left in there, then I would have understood that.

But when an application is REMOVED then it should be REMOVED. That would include ALL settings and every other little bit of remnant of it. It is being removed for a reason and if you were planning on doing something with the data at a later time, you had better have had a backup.

"So I'm wondering, of the thousands of programs that follow this recommended practice, how many others have you written to whining about this?"

None, this is the first one. The rest of the programs that I have had problems with, I didn't really care about. I didn't pay for them. And ultimately stopped using them in favor of an "Open-Source" alternative.

THIS is a program that I actually thought was worth the money.

Though that was the key word, "thought".

"It's one thing not to know or understand this stuff, but it's quite another to showcase your ignorance with this incredible bout of childish behaviour. I hope when you re-read this thread you're suitably ashamed of yourself."

The only thing I'm ashamed of is the fact that I have to respond to your n00-kiddie post. I don't know how long you have been playing with your mommy and daddy's 'puter, but maybe you should put your DOS manual down and really open your eyes.

WHEN A PROGRAM IS UNINSTALLED, THAT IS JUST THAT - IT IS UNINSTALLED. THERE SHOULD BE NOTHING LEFT, IT SHOULD BE CLEAN - IN THE STATE THAT IT WAS BEFORE YOU STARTED. OTHERWISE, DO NOT UNINSTALL!

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: starbucks_mafia] #185395 09/09/07 03:12 AM
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Mrafrohead Offline OP
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I guess the ultimate point is this:

It didn't used to function this way. When you uninstalled, it would uninstall a clean removal. Everything was in one directory. There wasn't a need to play this game.

Now if mIRC is trying to grow into a more complex program that is going to be playing with Application Data - then it should behave as one and be smart enough to monitor for any changes that mIRC makes and where it makes them. That way when it goes to remove them, it can.

But that's just my opinion. And we all know what can be said about those.

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: Mrafrohead] #185399 09/09/07 04:23 AM
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There are so many flaws in your argument its uncanny.

Quote:

While I do not code and do not know the "recommended practices"...I do know poor etiquette.

You do know that "recommended practices" is essentially equivalent to "programming etiquette", right? Nice contradiction.

Quote:

When you are the ADMINISTRATOR of a machine, you control the applications a user can and can not use. Their data is YOUR data and that is that.


That is a logical fallacy. Just because you control the programs a user can run does *not* imply that you control the data they own. If this were true, then you could, at any time, breach the privacy of data of every user on your system. Here you are on your etiquette high horse and you don't even know the etiquette of system administration? If you ever even tried to read my emails under the claim that you're the administrator and you own my data, I'd have you fired so darn fast...

The data of a user is *the user's data*, not yours. If the *user* makes use of a program and creates user specific settings, those settings belong to *them*. They created the data (through the app), not you. This goes the same for their word documents, emails, bookmarks, etc. Application settings are no different. If you installed mIRC on a system where I was your user and I installed scripts for me to use, some of which I authored on my own, that data is mine.

Quote:

then you had better hope that you are using the "recommended practice" of backing up your information


Backups have nothing to do with this issue, because you should not be responsible for editing a users settings, even if those settings are no longer in use.

Quote:

WHEN A PROGRAM IS UNINSTALLED, THAT IS JUST THAT - IT IS UNINSTALLED. THERE SHOULD BE NOTHING LEFT, IT SHOULD BE CLEAN - IN THE STATE THAT IT WAS BEFORE YOU STARTED. OTHERWISE, DO NOT UNINSTALL!


Oh look, it's mr. etiquette typing in all caps-- I thought you knew poor etiquette?

Anyway-- back to the quote-- In that case, mIRC should ask if you want an uninstall that keeps your settings behind or a full uninstall as an option only (which in my opinion should still remain the user's choice), defaulting to the former, since most people won't get hung up over a few leftover .ini files. Therefore, you can consider the "uninstaller" to be an uninstaller which acts like most other uninstallers that leave behind settings. This makes this issue not grounds for a bug report, but feature suggestion.

By the way, if you didn't already know, mIRC works similar to the way uninstall is handled in the following (very) abridged list of widely used programs:

- Winamp
- MSN Messenger
- Office
- Steam
- Firefox
- Thunderbird
- Adobe *anything*

Yes, Mozilla software leaves behind settings and plugins too, even registry keys-- I bet you were a huge Firefox fan until right now. Anyway, this seems like a good sample size to set a precedent to me. Precedents in software development, by the way, are also called "recommended practice", which, by the way, is also known as "programming *etiquette*" (your favourite word to blindly throw around). Sounds like mIRC is doing the right thing by many developers, including Microsoft themselves. If you don't like this precedent, try another OS (but don't go to OS X, Apple leaves userdata lying around too, as does Linux).

As a sidenote, here's a little tip on how to interact with other individuals just in case, you know, someone actually considers giving you a job: If you're trying to make a claim that someone is doing something incorrectly, don't come off as an immature rude dick-- it will increase the chances of them actually hearing you out. If you're genuinely frustrated with something, go take a breather, punch a wall or something, cool off and type like a sane rational individual. It's not smart to bite the hand that feeds; surely an intelligent system administator who knows all about etiquette such as yourself should know this.


- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
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Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: argv0] #185404 09/09/07 04:56 AM
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Om3n Offline
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Mrafrohead: You should NEVER delete files belonging to others users on a system, even if you are the administrator, UNLESS the files in question are in breach of any 'rules' in which the users have to abide to use the system. Furthermore, you should have a little common curtesy as the administrator, what is theirs is NOT yours, you wouldnt (i hope) read their personal diary so you should not be nosey and looking/reading in their personal documents either. But whatever, this is all besides the point...

My views are that mirc should NOT (by default) remove this data on uninstall, however i DO believe that the uninstaller should provide options such as 'remove data files for current user', 'remove data files for all users (administrator)', 'do not remove any data files (default)', 'remove registry entries' and so on.


"Allen is having a small problem and needs help adjusting his attitude" - Flutterby
Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: argv0] #185405 09/09/07 05:11 AM
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@argv0:

"You do know that "recommended practices" is essentially equivalent to "programming etiquette", right? Nice contradiction."

Essentially, but not completely...

Though, touche... Nice point.

"If you ever even tried to read my emails under the claim that you're the administrator and you own my data, I'd have you fired so darn fast..."

Good luck with that. Snooping users data is very unprofessional. That is something that is only done if there is an investigation of an individual going on. Sometimes it is necessary. Though, if there is not a necessity, it is _not_ to be done.

"Oh look, it's mr. etiquette typing in all caps-- I thought you knew poor etiquette?"

That's right, I'm fucking pissed and I was yelling. While I am flying off of the handle here, some of these equally immature responses are not necessary. I'm not posting here for you. I'm here for the author. Your response is not asked for and not necessary and is not contributing anything of value to the matter at hand.

"a full uninstall as an option only (which in my opinion should still remain the user's choice)"

There is not an option. And I do agree, it should be the Administrators choice.

"By the way, if you didn't already know, mIRC works similar to the way uninstall is handled in the following (very) abridged list of widely used programs:

- Winamp

The day I put an AOL app on my computer is the day I retire.

- Office

Could I please ask for my computer to be open to compromise? No thank you, OpenOffice here...

- Firefox
- Thunderbird

Never had a need to uninstall either of these apps yet. That would be something I will cross when I get there. Though - I would backup my data FIRST, just in case.

"Sounds like mIRC is doing the right thing by many developers, including Microsoft themselves."

Microsoft is a joke. I really would shy away from comparing myself to them. That isn't something IMO I would be proud of.

"try another OS (but don't go to OS X, Apple leaves userdata lying around too, as does Linux)."

Been working on Linux... Not really going to buy a Mac - too expensive for my blood... Though they are nice. I've been trying to learn Linux for a while now. For some reason I got hit with a stupid stick on that one, having a hell of a time picking it up.

"As a sidenote, here's a little tip on how to interact with other individuals just in case, you know, someone actually considers giving you a job: If you're trying to make a claim that someone is doing something incorrectly, don't come off as an immature rude dick-- it will increase the chances of them actually hearing you out. If you're genuinely frustrated with something, go take a breather, punch a wall or something, cool off and type like a sane rational individual. It's not smart to bite the hand that feeds; surely an intelligent system administator who knows all about etiquette such as yourself should know this."

I didn't come here to be nice about something. I tried that previously and have yet to get a response. Now I'm pissed... You as well appear to be a dick, so welcome to the club. In regards to the cooling off, yes you are right about that. But I'm getting too old to be nice about everything and at this point and time with this app - I don't see the relavence (sp?) anymore. I am the paying customer, therefore _I_ am the hand that feeds, dumbass... (not that the customer is always right...but come on now.) You know, it wouldn't be that hard for me to disassemble the program and "fix" the problems. Don't think that you're so smart to try to threaten the situation.

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: Om3n] #185406 09/09/07 05:17 AM
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Mrafrohead Offline OP
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@Om3n:

"You should NEVER delete files belonging to others users on a system, even if you are the administrator, UNLESS the files in question are in breach of any 'rules' in which the users have to abide to use the system."

I completely agree with you. I was only including that as a point. I didn't realize that I should have clarified that so much - as that seems to be the consensus that I go around reading peoples information. I have way too much work to do to have time to read what Susie Q wrote in her e-mails or put in her "private.txt" file... I do have morals...

"My views are that mirc should NOT (by default) remove this data on uninstall, however i DO believe that the uninstaller should provide options such as 'remove data files for current user', 'remove data files for all users (administrator)', 'do not remove any data files (default)', 'remove registry entries' and so on."

I guess that's what I'm trying to elude to...

On a side note, thank you for not being a dick and for posting a comment that has actual meaning and value. I do appreciate it.

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: Mrafrohead] #185408 09/09/07 06:29 AM
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Quote:
I'm here for the author. Your response is not asked for and not necessary and is not contributing anything of value to the matter at hand.

Hate to break it to you, but this is a public forum for a reason. Specifically, it's because other peoples responses and opinions absolutely count. If anything, this thread is a shining example of that. If you want to direct a message at Khaled only, please use his published email address. Otherwise, be prepared for the opinions of others; Khaled has other customers and they're stakeholders too.

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Microsoft is a joke

Unfortunately you're using a program on the wrong operating system to be saying that. If that's your belief, you shouldn't be here.

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I didn't come here to be nice about something.

Then why should anyone be nice to you? Why should anyone listen? Perhaps you could learn a few things from reading about The Art of Diplomacy.

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Now I'm pissed.

Again, this is not the place to "be pissed". This is a bug report forum, not a rant forum; please leave your emotions at the door. But really, you literally get angry about programs leaving a few files behind after an uninstall? I suggest getting your blood pressure checked, that might cause problems later on.

Quote:
_I_ am the hand that feeds

Khaled didn't ask you to use mIRC; you're the one asking Khaled to do something for your benefit-- therefore, you sir, are the one trying to get fed here, just so we get that analogy right.

Quote:
it wouldn't be that hard for me to disassemble the program and "fix" the problems.

It's not? Okay, go do it!

And with that, this thread should die; there's really no more productive discussion.

The End.


- argv[0] on EFnet #mIRC
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Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: argv0] #185412 09/09/07 07:28 AM
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Mrafrohead Offline OP
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"there's really no more productive discussion."

You mean there has been some? I must have missed it.

Re: Uninstall is not CLEAN! [Re: Mrafrohead] #185420 09/09/07 10:33 AM
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As others have pointed out, mIRC 6.3 now complies with Windows recommended practise and does not remove "Application Data\mIRC" when it is uninstalled, the same as all other software that complies with recommended practise, eg. Firefox, Ad-Aware, Google, Java, and so on.

As for the registration isue, I already have a fix for it and I send it personally to users who need it.

Thanks for the comments everyone, it looks like all the angles have been covered on this issue, so this topic is now closed.