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#183230 - 18/08/07 04:49 PM Register check thingie.
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
I must ask, someone else that got a bit confused about the new "register" thingie. i mean the feture that connect to the net "atlest i think it does", and there check if your key is valid ? i think it would be bether to spend that time it took making that feture in mirc to make something else? dont take me wrong now, i know Khaled want to get paid for hes work, how ever it didnt go 3 days befor a crack for that function was relesed on the web, i think it would be bether to spend the time it took to make that one to maybe make something with mirc "the program and it's functions" instead? smile maybe spend that time in add a feture that was requested or something? just a though, so dont flame me for asking.. wink
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#183232 - 18/08/07 04:57 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: sparta]
WideOpenSpace Offline
Vogon poet

Registered: 13/06/07
Posts: 157
Loc: ???
i agree
i found keygen and CRC removal patch today for this new version.
kinda pointless to waste time on "better" (which is not obviously) registration system while kmd could make other things
ppl suggested and i see it werent added...

but i guess upgrade comes soon since this version is bugged
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#183233 - 18/08/07 05:05 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: sparta]
Mentality Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 5024
Loc: London, England
Assuming you want mIRC to carry on being developed, Khaled needs to get paid. You don't have to register still, it's just more of a pain in the ass for you not to. $20 is such a measly amount, it does annoy me people are so cheap, especially as I've paid about $100 over the years and I work part time in a supermarket.

I don't think the intention is to stop everyone from using mIRC unless they register, however, this new method might encourage a few people to stop and think. Obviously this is the Internet and as with all popular programs a cracked EXE is to be expected within 24 hours of a release. I'm surprised it took so long actually. Hardcore cheapskates will always find a way round things. This validation method might direct some others in the right direction though smile

I doubt very much the incorporation of the validation method took more than a few days, out of ~9 months of development.

Regards,
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#183234 - 18/08/07 05:07 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: WideOpenSpace]
Mentality Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 5024
Loc: London, England
Every version has bugs. Every version of just about everything has bugs. It's virtually unavoidable. Unless there's some huge security flaw (as was the case with the DCC exploit some time ago) I doubt a release is going to be hurried along - at least that's not what history tells us.

Oh, and see my previous post re: cheapskates and no excuses.

Regards,
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#183235 - 18/08/07 05:18 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: Mentality]
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
Quote:
I doubt very much the incorporation of the validation method took more than a few days, out of ~9 months of development.


Maybe one more bug or maybe one new feture could be made during that time? and as you said, u was surprised it took so long time, so thats why i don't think it's well spent time to make this changes in mirc, this is the 3'd method i know mirc have been using during the years, so thats why i started this post, bether spend the time on the program, since it allways will be a way to crack a program relesed on the net, then why try make it more secure? bether add fetures or try fix the ones that are there. i think people would keep on paying him even if he removed that thing completley, then use "donate" instead, i know i would, and i belive many others here would too smile
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#183237 - 18/08/07 05:41 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: sparta]
Mentality Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 5024
Loc: London, England
"Maybe one more bug or maybe one new feture could be made during that time?"

You could argue "one more feature" "one more bug fix" for infinity. You'd never see a release again by that logic. The validation method is a necessary tool to help combat the rampant piracy mIRC receives in order for Khaled to continue to develop the program.

"and as you said, u was surprised it took so long time, so thats why i don't think it's well spent time to make this changes in mirc"

I also said I doubt the validation thing is a way of truly preventing illegal hacks - that's damn near impossible. I said it helps nudge otherwise well-meaning non-cheapskates into doing the right thing and registering.

"i think people would keep on paying him even if he removed that thing completley"

Evidently, you're wrong. I would imagine if enough people were paying then this effort wouldn't have been made in the first place.
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#183238 - 18/08/07 05:59 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: Mentality]
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
it took not even 3 days befor a crack was out, so thats why i dont see any reason to have the check at all, since you have 30 days to try out mirc, and during that time i think it would be a crack for any "protection" anyone could come up with. and im not here to argue about it, just my thought as i stated befor smile
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#183239 - 18/08/07 05:59 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: Mentality]
Awake Offline
Nutrimatic drinks dispenser

Registered: 17/08/07
Posts: 8
If you can't afford / are too tight to pay a $20 one time, lasts forever registration fee I wonder how on earth you manage to pay you're ISP for the use of your internet connection.

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#183240 - 18/08/07 06:01 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: sparta]
Mentality Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 5024
Loc: London, England
Indeed, but when you post your "thoughts" on a public message board they stop becoming just thoughts and are open to criticism. One assumes you didn't expect nobody to reply, otherwise, what's the point in posting?

I'm not repeating myself for a 3rd time about this whole "It's pointless because people can crack it" argument, suffice to say my last 2 posts make it quite clear that statement is flawed.
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#183241 - 18/08/07 06:04 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: Awake]
sparta Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 22/02/03
Posts: 3432
Loc: Sweden/Borlänge
if that was to me, then i havent said anything about not afford it, i think it's a waste of time to protect something that people would pay for even without that register check. i have seen many programs that are made only by the founding from what people give, not pay for a key or anything, just that people would pay for programs they like to use. and also see updated.
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#183251 - 18/08/07 07:57 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: sparta]
Horstl Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 1559
Loc: Germany
I'm unable to comprehend arguments like:
Originally Posted By: sparta
(...)so thats why i started this post, bether spend the time on the program, since it allways will be a way to crack a program relesed on the net, then why try make it more secure?
Do you hold a car? could someone possibly steal it? Yes? - So why do you lock it at all. Do you occupy a house? ...

Originally Posted By: sparta
(...) i think it's a waste of time to protect something that people would pay for even without that register check.
Imho, this whole registration thing is not about protection but about notification. You can keep using the shareware without any restrictions (a nag screen is no restriction) if the trial time passed. There is plenty of shareware out there acting not that permissive... wink

Freeware requests donations, Shareware requests registrations.
mIRC has grown a lot over the years, the effort and expenses needed to keep it up-to-day increased without any doubt, and it's only fair to request some payment for the results of this work. This is yet done in in a quite liberal way, as stated above.
And there's one crucial point left (some seem to miss): using a crack/keygen is an illegal act. At least some who do so could be aware of this, thus consider a registration.

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#183275 - 19/08/07 12:25 AM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: sparta]
hixxy Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 06/09/05
Posts: 2876
Originally Posted By: sparta
how ever it didnt go 3 days befor a crack for that function was relesed on the web


Khaled "didn't" know it would "only go" 3 days without being "cracked though did" he? And as long as it "coaxes at least one person" into buying a licence, "then it has" done its job just "fine."

Originally Posted By: sparta
maybe make something with mirc "the program and it's functions" instead? smile maybe spend that time in add a feture that was requested or something? just a though, so dont flame me for asking.. wink


If Khaled "is being" underpaid for "his work", then what makes you "think he wants to" spend extra time "making features" when he's "being stolen from?"

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#183288 - 19/08/07 02:14 AM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: hixxy]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: NC, USA
Just to add my opinion... I've never been a fan of copy protections. In general, such protections force a very small number of people (relatively) to buy it. Most people who will buy the game are going to buy it with or without the protection. Most people who won't buy it, but will pirate it, will do so with or without the protection. Very few protections aren't cracked withing 24 hours of release. And for those who want to pirate it, they already know how to do so and protections aren't stopping them.

Consider the number of games and programs out there without any protections at all. Do those companies really suffer that much? If it hurt that badly to not have protections, why are those companies even in business? Yes, Khaled made this protection, so he didn't have to pay for it, but other companies pay for their protection schemes that really have no useful effect. Is the cost of the protection really much less than the money brought in by the relatively few extra people who buy the game? Many companies seem to agree with me and aren't using protection at all.

I don't like validation things anyhow. Too often, something goes wrong somewhere down the road and you're stuck with a legal copy of something that will no longer work.

Anyhow, that's my opinion on copy protection in general. It may give Khaled some more money, but I just don't know that it's really worth it. I'll deal with having that validation, but I certainly don't like it.
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#183299 - 19/08/07 04:12 AM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: Riamus2]
starbucks_mafia Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2962
Loc: Norwich, UK
There's some truth in what you're saying about people who'll pay will pay regardless, whereas many who wouldn't will prefer to find a way around restrictions rather than do the right thing. I don't think it's all that meaningful to compare other programs' success without the use of piracy-prevention with mIRC though. There are a vast number of differences amongst programs that can affect what's practical and what's not.

For one thing a lot of free or "donationware" software is written by groups of people who develop software as a hobby and not as a means of income. It's fine to be lax and liberal about payment for software when it's just something you do after-hours or on weekends, but completely another when you're a sole developer putting all your time into it.

There's also the variances in audience that determine how many people will buy or crack your software. Programs like mIRC unfortunately attract no small portion of kids (of all ages) and wannabe "hackers" who think they're beyond paying for software.

The method of distribution makes a difference too: a lot of people seem to subscribe to the idea that it's OK to steal software when it's download-only. Contrast that with software in a box on a shelf, where suddenly a lot less people think they've got some God-given right to take it without paying.

There's really no way for anyone here to know what the figures are for people cracking mIRC or what proportion of users have paid, so anything said here is just speculation. Whatever the situation though, it's important to remember that it's a whole lot easier to be high-minded about these things when it's somebody else's income on the line.
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#183307 - 19/08/07 05:08 AM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: starbucks_mafia]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: NC, USA
Originally Posted By: starbucks_mafia
For one thing a lot of free or "donationware" software is written by groups of people who develop software as a hobby and not as a means of income. It's fine to be lax and liberal about payment for software when it's just something you do after-hours or on weekends, but completely another when you're a sole developer putting all your time into it.


I wasn't talking about free/donation programs. I was talking about commercial products including those sold in boxes in stores.

Quote:
There's also the variances in audience that determine how many people will buy or crack your software. Programs like mIRC unfortunately attract no small portion of kids (of all ages) and wannabe "hackers" who think they're beyond paying for software.


Although true, this really makes no difference in what I said. Any popular program or game will be hacked quickly just because it's popular. Most other ones will be hacked eventually. Just because there are more people who would like it free doesn't mean that protection will change whether or not they'll pay.

Quote:
The method of distribution makes a difference too: a lot of people seem to subscribe to the idea that it's OK to steal software when it's download-only. Contrast that with software in a box on a shelf, where suddenly a lot less people think they've got some God-given right to take it without paying.


Again, this is true, but it doesn't change whether people will pay just because there is protection.

Quote:
There's really no way for anyone here to know what the figures are for people cracking mIRC or what proportion of users have paid, so anything said here is just speculation. Whatever the situation though, it's important to remember that it's a whole lot easier to be high-minded about these things when it's somebody else's income on the line.


True. It is entirely possible that this change will make a large percentage of people pay for mIRC. However, that's highly unlikely. Yes, some additional people will. But it's unlikely that it will be a significant portion of those who refused to pay up till now. And all new payments can't be considered as being paid because of the change. You have to consider that there are people who are just picking this up for the first time and paying for it as well. You'd have to look at the percent of increase in payments to see what change there is.

As far as "other people's money" ... if I was a sole programmer for something and released it for money, I wouldn't put protections on it. Even when it's my own money, my opinion on the matter doesn't change.

Now, in this situation, this is (I believe) Khaled's only program. As he isn't making any other programs that could bring in money and he only charges people once per lifetime to use it, I can see where trying to find a way to get more money coming in is important. I can't imagine there are that many new registrations these days. Most people who are going to get mIRC have already done so by now. It isn't exactly a new program. It would be different if he were making other programs, he'd have other sources for income, or if he required paying for mIRC multiple times (perhaps $10-20 for each major update -- 5.x to 6.x or 6.1x to 6.2x for example). But the way it stands now, his income from mIRC should be dwindling and he needs some way to change that. I honestly don't see much chance of getting mIRC to start bringing in a lot of income again, though. It's just used too much already. There aren't enough new users these days and that isn't likely to change with IRC use dropping slowly.
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#183353 - 19/08/07 10:22 AM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: Riamus2]
hixxy Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 06/09/05
Posts: 2876
Originally Posted By: Riamus2
Yes, some additional people will.


Then has it not done its job?

It's unlikely to have taken more than a few days to develop and if it's even brought in an extra $50 then I'd say it's well worth it.

Rather than argue whether the change is pointless or not, why not consider the harm it causes? None. It's not like the new nag screen appears for 10 minutes.

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#183369 - 19/08/07 03:02 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: Riamus2]
starbucks_mafia Offline
Hoopy frood

Registered: 09/12/02
Posts: 2962
Loc: Norwich, UK
Quote:
True. It is entirely possible that this change will make a large percentage of people pay for mIRC. However, that's highly unlikely. Yes, some additional people will. But it's unlikely that it will be a significant portion of those who refused to pay up till now. And all new payments can't be considered as being paid because of the change. You have to consider that there are people who are just picking this up for the first time and paying for it as well. You'd have to look at the percent of increase in payments to see what change there is.

Indeed I would. As would you. As I said before though, neither of us have that information so it's pointless for anyone to try and argue a point based purely on our own speculation.

Quote:
As far as "other people's money" ... if I was a sole programmer for something and released it for money, I wouldn't put protections on it. Even when it's my own money, my opinion on the matter doesn't change.

Allow me to re-phrase my point then: It's a lot easier to be high-minded about these things in theory than in practice. I don't know what work you do, but I'm willing to bet a lot of money you wouldn't appreciate it if someone suggested that you shouldn't bother trying to chase down customers who don't pay.

Quote:
Now, in this situation, this is (I believe) Khaled's only program. As he isn't making any other programs that could bring in money and he only charges people once per lifetime to use it, I can see where trying to find a way to get more money coming in is important. I can't imagine there are that many new registrations these days. Most people who are going to get mIRC have already done so by now. It isn't exactly a new program. It would be different if he were making other programs, he'd have other sources for income, or if he required paying for mIRC multiple times (perhaps $10-20 for each major update -- 5.x to 6.x or 6.1x to 6.2x for example). But the way it stands now, his income from mIRC should be dwindling and he needs some way to change that. I honestly don't see much chance of getting mIRC to start bringing in a lot of income again, though. It's just used too much already. There aren't enough new users these days and that isn't likely to change with IRC use dropping slowly.

Well again that's all assumptions, although it seems rather naive. Internet access is still growing at a fast rate, broadband access is largely replacing dial-up in many areas - which means more flat monthly fees instead of hourly rates, community and city-wide wireless LAN networks are being brought up in in a lot of places providing convenient and cheap/free internet access to millions. I don't see how you could come to the conclusion that mIRC has all the users it will ever get, as if the Internet is 'full' or something.

This whole thread started badly and I can only see it going south from here so I think I'll bail out now.
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#183373 - 19/08/07 03:17 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: starbucks_mafia]
beer Offline
Ameglian cow

Registered: 21/07/07
Posts: 38
I only read the first couple posts. Look, $20 is a fair amount to ask and I think anyone who uses Mirc regularly should consider it. However, I am concerned if Mirc becomes bloated with 'protection' that always gets cracked anyway. Then the focus has shifted from making the best software possible to a tug of war between Khaled and the crackers. And as has happened countless times before, this ruins software and in the end it's the legit users & Khaled who would lose.

Stay focused on Mirc, not a bunch of fruitless efforts to force a donation.

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#183388 - 19/08/07 06:02 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: starbucks_mafia]
Riamus2 Offline
Planetary brain

Registered: 13/10/04
Posts: 8327
Loc: NC, USA
Originally Posted By: starbucks_mafia
I don't see how you could come to the conclusion that mIRC has all the users it will ever get, as if the Internet is 'full' or something.

This whole thread started badly and I can only see it going south from here so I think I'll bail out now.


I'll also bail out now as I was just pointing out my opinion on protection. However, I wanted to comment on this one item. I didn't say mIRC has all the users it will ever get. Obviously, more users will use mIRC in the future. The thing is that there isn't going to be a huge influx of new users. They will slowly go through. I'd be willing to bet that the reason Khaled decided to do this out of nowhere is that the new registrations have been dropping and he wants to keep money coming in. Yes, yes... that's speculation. Still, it has a decent chance of being correct.

Btw, I might chase customers who try leaving a store I owned (if I owned a store), but I wouldn't waste the effort to try to stop piracy of any software I wrote. It really doesn't help enough to make it worth the effort, imo. And, as I have stated before, there are companies who have come to the same conclusion and no longer use protections at all.

And I agree with beer.
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#183516 - 20/08/07 06:32 PM Re: Register check thingie. [Re: Riamus2]
RRX Offline
Vogon poet

Registered: 24/01/04
Posts: 162
Well, so far I used mIRC unregistered.

But Mr. Khaled said he would see what he can do regarding an issue with wildcard matching I moaned about, mostly due to my specific application of matching a token string so alot wildcards separated by token separators.
He implemented the much faster method in 6.3, and its amazing how much the overall speed of my big script has increased, I never realized how much I got used to the slowness it caused.

So yes, two days ago I ordered it. That is just.. fair.

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