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#176415 09/05/07 05:45 PM
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"Hello irc community! I want to make a suggestion. As you know , irc is losing people because of msn. I think if you create a irc client with msn incorporate , with a lot of smiles , graphics , colors , people will use irc again! I miss that old times with a lot of people on irc , please make something like that!"

--ribery (newbie)

Found this in the new features suggestions, but though it would be more appropriate to respond here.

I'm sure this topic must come up ad nauseum. :P

I think it's more a matter of, as new competing services hit the net, people will gravitate towards the ones they like the best. I'm sure the same thing happened when the first IRC network split. It doesn't mean anything is dieing off and needs to be fixed to compete.

What IRC does better than IM's is group chats.

What I like about IRC is that you don't need to run any proprietary software bloated with unnecessary features and adware and don't need to sign up for anything before you can use it.

What I like about IM's is the very good away system which tells you who's on and if they're at their computer or not without needing to message them first. mIRC includes some of this with it's notify list which I make liberal use of.

Perhaps one of the things that probably makes IRC not work as well as IMs, is the vast number of networks to choose from that all basically do exactly the same thing. With IM's, you install the software and connect and your friends do the same. With, irc, you have to tell your friends what network to get on and pick a server and maybe a channel so you can find each other.

I don't know, but is there really a need to have that many networks? IRC, to me, seems like it was designed so that everyone could use the same network and just have different channels for different topics and opinions on rules etc, etc. I think mIRC kind of deals with this by installing with a default network selected to make things easier for new users.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing those things I like combined into one application. I can see how status messages could be shared through an IRC network very easily through the CTCP: "/CTCP list,of,online,friends STATUS Went out for coffee or something.", "/CTCP friends STATUS Online/Offline", "/CTCP friends STATUS Changed my nick to something else.", etc, and have the Notify list automatically pick that information up so you can see your friends status without having to be on a the same channel to see their nick change or whois them to see their away message. You'd control who see's your status with your notify list then and have an invisable option that disables the feature on a global or per user basis and have a menu for common messages, etc.

Certainly, someone could design a full blown IM application that worked over an IRC network for those that want all those features.

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there's a addon to use smilies in mirc and there's a messenger addon aswell.
irc excistes longer than msn chat , msn chat is gone.
some irc nertworks offer webchat that look like msn , you can always chat on those

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Unfortunately this subject arises much too often. I would really
hate to see mIRC make these changes to try and appeal to the IM
crowd. Bundling IRC and IM into one application has already been
done with Trillian, and I think that was a great idea, let Trillian
add all the smilies and things that these people want, just please
leave our mIRC alone. As it is now there are IM apps, IRC apps
and with Trillian there is both. If a person really wants all that
stuff added to mIRC, they can script it in, that is but one part
of the beauty of mIRC, a very large part actually.

~ Edit ~
It would be nice if Khaled would take a position on this issue.

-

Quote:
is there really a need to have that many networks?


The thing about IRC servers is, anyone that feels like it can
download any of the free IRCd's and run their own server. It's
an age-old thing with IRC for everyone wanting to be the one in
charge, wanting to be the one that owns the popular network.
Also, everyone thinks that they can do it better, so they split
off from the network they oper on, download an IRCd, get a shell
and start their own network. It's the same way with channels,
there really only needs to be one help channel, or one mp3 channel
or whatever channel on a network, but everyone wants to be the
one in charge, the one that owns the popular channel, and again,
everyone thinks they can do it better, so now you have 100+ help
channels, 1000+ mp3 channels and 10,000+ whatever else channels
on one network. These things will probably never change.

Last edited by RoCk; 09/05/07 07:22 PM.
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Hoopy frood
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I find it interesting that people spend so much time writing this stuff. IRC is what it is and it's not likely to change anytime soon, if ever. mIRC also isn't likely to become an IM look-alike client. IRC and IM are two entirely different entities and they will always be different.

If someone prefers IM, stick with it and don't bother with IRC. And vice versa. For those of us who like both, it isn't any problem to use both without expecting them to look alike.

If you want a client that acts more like an IM program than mIRC, there are some available.

Regardless, IRC isn't "losing ground to IM's" ... IM's have little to do with the number of people leaving IRC. IRC loses people more because so many people want the quick and easy and don't want anything more complicated than that. IM is simple. No networks, just nicks. Click, type. That's it. IRC is more complicated because it lets you do a LOT more. Many people prefer simple rather than having more features and abilities.

That is the main reason for a slow loss of people from IRC. Many just don't feel like being on IRC anymore. There aren't many new users because of the complexity. So the numbers are dropping. It's not because of IM.


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I don't think there's any need to bundle IM and IRC in the same package. Just means unnecessary bloating.

Smileys look pretty, but they don't serve any useful purpose, as I find most of the extra features on IM's.

mIRC already has file transfers added to it. That's useful.

Only other feature I think would be useful to add would be a status system and away system that works more efficently than the notify list and away messages, like I described.

I might script such a thing myself some time. and see how it goes and if it catches on.

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That's the same thing I was thinking of why it's loosing people, if any. It's too complicated, but I disagree that it's because it does more. It actually does less and makes it harder to do.

No pretty pictures, no video, no audio, no mobile devices, almost no one can send files because they're behind a router or firewall, if you want to talk to your friends you have to make sure you meet on the same server and channel--you can't just message them directly, nick changes make the notify list useless and block private messages from going through, half the users don't even see your away messages, it doesn't notify you when someone sends you a message unless you're actually looking. Yes, I know you can configure it to do all these things, but if you look at it from the perspective of a new user, no one in their right mind would choose to go through all that hassle to chat with their friends if they had the option.

That being said, it's still my favourite and I want to get more of my friends to use it. I'm always helping them over the learning curve to unlock it's advantages.

I can see a lot of potential if people would be more forward thinking and agree on ways to further develop the technology and address it's shortcommings. I see them being remarkably easy to deal with.

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I have to put my 2 cents in here and beg/plead that mirc doesnt become another msn/aim/yahoo. That to me would be the final straw.
No disrespect intended to IM client fans but IM is IM and IRC is IRC, besides what about paying for IM client capable servers? as it stands right now it is so easy to install IRC server software, would it be as easy to run servers like yahoo etc does?


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Originally Posted By: Constantine
I have to put my 2 cents in here and beg/plead that mirc doesnt become another msn/aim/yahoo. That to me would be the final straw.
No disrespect intended to IM client fans but IM is IM and IRC is IRC, besides what about paying for IM client capable servers? as it stands right now it is so easy to install IRC server software, would it be as easy to run servers like yahoo etc does?


The final straw? Are there so many other things about mIRC that you don't like?

I'm sure that noone (that's sane) wants mIRC to be anything but an IRC client. Why is there so much fear about an interface change, people are buying Windows Vista like crazy, the the interface is an important reason. Let me guess... You run windows XP, but change the interface so it looks like earlier versions. Not changing and adapting will cause the end of every program within some length of time.

There is nothing wrong with changing the visual interface. If there was, people wouldn't love the treebar as much as they do. smile

Edit: Many of you are trying point out distinctions between IM and IRC, as reasons to disagree... These difference in no way prevent mIRC from using an improved interface and still be backwards compatible to both scripts and the original interface. smile

Last edited by NaquadaServ; 10/05/07 08:45 PM.

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Quote:
You run windows XP, but change the interface so it looks like earlier versions.

I don't know about him, but I do because it improves performance.

Quote:
There is nothing wrong with changing the visual interface. If there was, people wouldn't love the treebar as much as they do.

The treebar was more than just a visual change.

Performance and functionality first .. pretty is dead last.

~ Edit ~

Quote:
Many of you are trying point out distinctions between IM and IRC, as reasons to disagree... These difference in no way limit us to not using an improved interface.

As you pointed out in your other post in feature requests, you
don't want to turn mIRC into bundled IRC and IM, you just want
it to look like IM.

~ Edit ~
Quote:
an improved interface and still be backwards compatible to both scripts and the original interface.


bloat bloat bloat .. and what if most people don't think the
interface needs improving, or can be improved for that matter.
I think it looks perfect just the way it is.

Last edited by RoCk; 10/05/07 09:00 PM.
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Originally Posted By: RoCk
The treebar was more than just a visual change.

Performance and functionality first... pretty is dead last.


Did I say pretty? I said improve the visual interface, there is a difference...

Originally Posted By: RoCk
bloat bloat bloat .. and what if most people don't think the interface needs improving, or can be improved for that matter. I think it's perfect just the way it is.


Edited: Nothing is perfect... If mIRC was perfect Khaled could retire this program and kill these forums. BTW, It takes fewer or equal resource to have a desktop window rather than a MDI window open (in the same thread).

Last edited by NaquadaServ; 10/05/07 08:58 PM.

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no windows here thanks. And why should mirc change to be like IM clients anyway isnt there enough of them? IM is just that IM sure you can chat to friends create temp chat rooms etc, and yes I do see pros and cons for im over irc and the other way around, but my opinion ewas purely that my opinion. If mirc was to go the IM lookalike route I would vote with my feet or pack in irc altogether that would be my choice? or am I missing something about your reply?


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Quote:
Did I say pretty? I said improve the visual interface,


You didn't say improve the functionality of the UI, you
said "improve the visual interface". That means,
make it more pretty.

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I said "bloat bloat bloat" in response to having both...

Quote:
an improved interface and still be backwards compatible to both scripts and the original interface.


~ Edit ~
Quote:
Nothing is perfect... If mIRC was perfect Khaled could retire this program and kill these forums.

I meant visually.

Last edited by RoCk; 10/05/07 09:14 PM.
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Originally Posted By: RoCk
You didn't say improve the functionality of the UI, you
said "improve the visual interface". That means,
make it more pretty.


So the treebar looks the same as the switchbar, come on... The two are tied together in any GUI application. If it's a different UI, it most likey looks different. If you are going to argue a point please let it make sense. smirk

Originally Posted By: RoCk
I said "bloat bloat bloat" in response to having both...



Only one is used at any particular time, thus no "bloat".



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Originally Posted By: Constantine
no windows here thanks. And why should mirc change to be like IM clients anyway isnt there enough of them? IM is just that IM sure you can chat to friends create temp chat rooms etc, and yes I do see pros and cons for im over irc and the other way around, but my opinion ewas purely that my opinion. If mirc was to go the IM lookalike route I would vote with my feet or pack in irc altogether that would be my choice? or am I missing something about your reply?


I'm not talking about mIRC with some additional IM client, an "IM" is a private message, that's all. I'm talking about visual changes (GUI changes to make RoCk, happy), some of which is already supported with desktop windows.

Additional changes include, being able to pull docked toolbars off in to their own windows (undock), and I personally love the idea of a $replace that can replace a part of the string with an image. If echoed, the image is used, if sent to the server the text is used.


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omg is that what you're going on about? Here I'll rephrase it for you...

Originally Posted By: RoCk
You didn't say improve the functionality of the interface, you said
"improve the visual interface". That means, make it more pretty.


Originally Posted By: NaquadaServ
and I personally love the idea of a $replace that can replace a part of the string with an image. If echoed, the image is used, if sent to the server the text is used.


Yes I think that is a good idea too.

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Sorry, I like to argue, more than I like to explain in detail. grin

My fault, I'm glad you agree. smile


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Originally Posted By: DanSkunk
That's the same thing I was thinking of why it's loosing people, if any. It's too complicated, but I disagree that it's because it does more. It actually does less and makes it harder to do.

No pretty pictures, no video, no audio, no mobile devices,


You can do all of that through scripts and DLLs. I stated that you could do more with mIRC than with IM and that is true... because of the ability to script. Can you play games and automated trivia on IM? I've yet to see IM darts or UNO or Scattergories. And that's just games. Because of scripting, mIRC can do a lot more than any IM program.

Originally Posted By: DanSkunk
almost no one can send files because they're behind a router or firewall,


That isn't true. They just don't know how. You can use passive DCC to send things regardless if you have a router or firewall that cannot be configured as long as the person you are sending to doesn't have the port(s) blocked. In IRC, you can use basically any port. In IM, you are often limited to only one port, which means that one port may be blocked if you are at a university or business. In the end, sending with mIRC is more adaptable, but is more difficult to learn to do if you don't know what you are doing. Of course, mIRC is meant for chatting rather than sending stuff anyhow. smile

Originally Posted By: DanSkunk
if you want to talk to your friends you have to make sure you meet on the same server and channel--you can't just message them directly,


Most people who use IRC stick to a specific set of channels, so this point is rather moot. Any of your friends who are on IRC are likely going to be in channels that you're in, so you *can* just click their nicks and send them messages if they are connected.

Originally Posted By: DanSkunk
nick changes make the notify list useless and block private messages from going through, half the users don't even see your away messages,


These types of things could be suggested for changing and could possibly be improved. They don't in any way show that IM is better.

Originally Posted By: DanSkunk
it doesn't notify you when someone sends you a message unless you're actually looking.


Huh? Sure it will. Just add a sound if you don't like the visual method.

Originally Posted By: DanSkunk
Yes, I know you can configure it to do all these things, but if you look at it from the perspective of a new user, no one in their right mind would choose to go through all that hassle to chat with their friends if they had the option.


As I stated, it is more complex. So why go through all of that? It is more complex because of the wide variety of things you can do with it. Could it be simplified in certain areas? Probably. Should it be made to be like IM clients? No.

The problem isn't mIRC or IRC. That's not really why people don't use it as much. People don't want to take the time and effort to learn something new. If they can do something without ever having to think about it, most prefer that. For those people, IRC is just never going to be right. For those who are willing to put in a little effort, mIRC is *very* easy to learn. I had 4th graders using it without effort in under 15 minutes of explanation. Granted, they weren't writing scripts and sending files and changing a lot of settings, but they could easily use it for chatting. I could have had them doing anything besides writing scripts in 1-2 hours without any difficulty at all. mIRC's not that hard to learn, but it does require putting in the effort to do so.


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Just a general response first:

no no no, don't change the interface. It's perfect the way it is, it doesn't need to look prettier. I like how it's nice and simple.

I was just suggesting to make the notify list track a bit more information, is all.

Riamus2:

Yes, usually you're on the same channel, but I'll also use mine to talk to people without being on a channel a lot.

You came to the same conclusion I was making. People don't want to have to learn all that stuff and go through all that bother and won't if they don't need to.

But would it not make more sense to improve the technology to better serve the desires of the users rather than trying to change the users to fit the technology?

Most users are not going to go through the hassle of messing with scripts. If it don't do what they want out of the box, they'll go use a different product that does.

There seem to be a lot of die hard vetran users that are resistant to change, but nothing need be done to inconvience them.

You can add all the new features people want, make the product more user friendly, and make it appeal to a broader user base, while still giving users the option of disabling, or just not using the features they don't want. You can make both groups happy. You could even produce two versions of the product. A user friendly, feature rich one, to appeal to the general internet user, and a slim, simplified version, for those that want that.

I think everyone here really likes this product, and would like to see more people using it, and see it selling more copies, but to do that, you kinda need to give it something people will see as value for their money. If they can get something else for free that does more, well...

I think, by the loyalty mIRC has, it's doing a lot right, but at the same time, you can see the popularity of other chat applications, so they must be doing something right too. mIRC users seem to like things simple and straightforward and functional--and not bloated with things that aren't necessary. So maybe look at what people want, look at what is actually useful, and encorporate that. Build something more functional, while still retaining the simplicity and efficiency. smile

Or something... I need to sleep. :P

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mIRC is the number one IRC client. A major reason why is the ability to script it. If people are that concerned with the other IM-like abilities and refuse to use one of the already available methods of doing those things, then there are clients out there that can do that stuff. The major difference is that mIRC has the ability to script things. So for those who don't care about scripting, there isn't any real reason not to use a client that offers what they want. For those who do care about scripting, they can use scripts that allow doing most of the popular requests until a time when it *may* be included. Until then, complaining about the same things over and over and blaming IRC's loss of people on IM, which is inaccurate, doesn't solve anything.

As for upgrading technology to suit the people... mIRC gets updated regularly. Will it be changed so that it spoon feeds everyone so that there isn't any complexity and people can use it as easily as IM? Doubtful, and I certainly hope that never happens. Will IRC (not mIRC) allow users to all chat together without multiple networks and channels? No. It will never happen. Those multiple networks and channels are what IRC *is* and that will never change.

Remember that you are talking about 2 different things... IRC and mIRC. People are leaving IRC (not mIRC) because of complexity. Changes to mIRC won't increase users of IRC. And changes to IRC are unlikely to happen in the way you suggest. IRC is what it is and that won't change. It will always be a more comlpex way of chatting.


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